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Post by smithy on Mar 16, 2017 7:28:59 GMT 12
Just been looking at documents created by the US air service in WWI and the term used is, victories. The RAF document used at the time to report any actions, "Combats in the Air", offered the report filer 3 options as a "result", Destroyed, Driven down out of control or Driven down, with space after to add further comments. Comments like "one (In flames)" or 1. The pilots making comments in the main text of their reports like, "which I shot down and which was observed to crash by ....", "He went straight down to the ground and crashed", "I watched him crash and burst into flames on the ground", "He went down and I saw him crash N.E. of ..." Documents written by Americans, "As a result of this combat we brought down one enemy aircraft", "One tri-plane Fokker shot down in flames just before reaching the objective", "Three enemy aircraft down, one in flames, one crashed and one out of control" Overall, very professional. Good post! The "Combats in the Air" form is the Army Form W.3348 which dates back to RFC times and still includes the "driven down" classification, although it seems some squadrons seem to have ignored this designation later in the war in claims and only classified as "destroyed" or "driven out of control" - the inference being that the DOOC classification was a hold all for any claim other than destruction from crashing or an aircraft being aflame. That's not to say some squadrons didn't continue using this form of claim classification, our Aussie brethren in 2 Sqn AFC continued to use this until war's end. Sorry if I've digressed slightly but an interesting discussion!
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Post by smithy on Mar 15, 2017 9:02:19 GMT 12
Not "officially" though Dave. The British air forces (including NZ, Oz, Canada, SA) were officially reticent about talking about "kills" but obviously the papers love that kind of stuff, the more blood, thunder and glory kind of stuff the more issues you could shift ;-) I'm still pretty certain that it was the yanks who were the first to start talking about "kills" within military administration.
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Post by smithy on Mar 15, 2017 7:45:54 GMT 12
The original British term in WWI was to 'force down' an aircraft, I believe. Hi Dave, In terms of the British side of things in WWI, forced down, or more often "driven down", was a description mostly used around the early to mid WWI period to describe a combat where the enemy aircraft was forced to break off, dive and make for its lines. It didn't necessarily mean the destruction of the aircraft. Later in the war (late 1916/1917) there seems to have been an attempt at more standardisation of claims with: "destroyed" - where the aircraft was seen to crash or was on fire; and "driven down out of control" - where the aircraft was observed to leave the combat in an uncontrolled manner. The term "kill" in relation to air combat is originally an American idea coming out of WWII. One of the reasons why it's really very difficult to contrast or rate "aces" or even victories between differing air forces in WWI and WWII especially, is due to the differences in terms of defining what constitutes a victory and the various differing classification systems for levels of victories from air force service to air force service. Always a bit of a tricky business!
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Post by smithy on Mar 15, 2017 7:19:41 GMT 12
Congrats Dave!
In truth much of the success of this board has been due to your dedication and perseverance in getting it up and going and turning it into what it is today.
If I was back home I'd shout you a cold one :-)
Once again, well done mate.
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Post by smithy on Mar 14, 2017 8:51:37 GMT 12
I've just uploaded the full doco on to YouTube. It would be interesting to know where their careers led them, anyone know? Jason. Loved it, many thanks for posting that!
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Post by smithy on Mar 1, 2017 8:03:44 GMT 12
That'll max out the old credit card!
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Post by smithy on Mar 1, 2017 7:47:46 GMT 12
We have better beer, wine, bars and women, the very needs of any fighter pilot. Dave, you get my vote for Minister of Foreign Affairs mate!
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Post by smithy on Mar 1, 2017 7:43:32 GMT 12
Love it. I am an absolute sucker for all of Hawker's inter-war biplanes. The prettiest family of biplanes ever made.
That looks like it's going to be a cracker. Although old the Airfix Demon shapewise is superb.
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Post by smithy on Mar 1, 2017 7:40:40 GMT 12
Thanks to everyone who went to the trouble of posting pics for us who couldn't be there. It looks like it was an awesome weekend!
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Post by smithy on Feb 24, 2017 20:47:48 GMT 12
Sorry Tim, that was the first I had heard of Mr Le Mesurier, so I have no info on the publication. Maybe the original poster on FlyPast can assist. Thanks Dave and good idea, I'll ask over there as well.
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Post by smithy on Feb 24, 2017 10:31:01 GMT 12
Please take a ton of photos for those of us who are unable or too far away to attend!
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Post by smithy on Feb 24, 2017 9:37:05 GMT 12
Hi Dave, maybe you or someone can help. In the link above it has an extract from Le Mesurier's diary and the poster says that his diary has been published. Do you or anybody know the book and can point me in the right direction regarding the title? Sounds like an interesting read by a very interesting fellow.
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Post by smithy on Feb 24, 2017 9:18:59 GMT 12
Pearce 'Darkie' Dunn was gutted, he was meant to be posted to Singapore where he was planning to rescue a German U-boat. Sadly the authorities in Wellington heard his plans and had his posting changed to Fiji. The U-boat was scuttled, sadly. One of the few to be miffed about being shoved off to Fiji then Dave!
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Post by smithy on Feb 24, 2017 9:03:41 GMT 12
Brilliant job posting that Dave and great footage.
I imagine none were too gutted on news of a posting to Lauthala Bay. The wives and significant others don't look terribly put out either!
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Post by smithy on Feb 24, 2017 8:39:00 GMT 12
That is simply fantastic news and how wonderful that it's gone to the AF Museum. Great stuff!
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Post by smithy on Feb 23, 2017 9:38:14 GMT 12
Somebody knowledgeable here must know this...
Was the last time F-16s visited NZ in 1984? I'm pretty sure yank ones came over then for an exercise and I think it might be mentioned in Don's book (which is buried in a box under a ton of boxes from our move, otherwise I'd have a look!).
Anyone?
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Post by smithy on Feb 22, 2017 7:44:23 GMT 12
F-16s back home eh? A taste of what might have been!
We're a bit spoilt as there is a F-16 squadron based here and we're not at all far away from the base. Get to see (and hear!) them everyday. Drives some people here nuts, me, I wouldn't change a thing!
Sounds as if it's going to be a brilliant weekend at Ohakea.
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Post by smithy on Feb 22, 2017 7:24:51 GMT 12
Its well worth listening to. Geoffrey also wrote a great book titled First Light and it is a classic. He is an absolute gentleman , we met in the RAF Club prior to BOB Day and he was gathered with about a dozen other BOB pilots having a stiffner before the service at Westminster. Yet he took the time to shout my 12 year old daughter a lemonade then took her across to meet "the Boys " . Even though I had my camera , I felt over awed by these great guys and just couldn't take a photo. On learning we didn't have tickets , he arranged for us to sit with them at the service. A very special memory of a very special man. Sorry tremendously late to the party here but just stumbled upon this. What a terrific opportunity and experience to have! And what a lovely thing to do both with your daughter and by wangling you guys into the service. And I second the recommendation of "First Light", absolutely one of the greatest pilot memoirs there is. I must admit I'm hugely envious. I've never met a member of the Few but have had the privilege of corresponding with a handful of them and even a couple of phone calls (one of the family flew in the BoB and they were wonderfully helpful) and they are the most fantastic fellows. Thanks once again for sharing that!
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Post by smithy on Feb 18, 2017 8:42:17 GMT 12
Thanks for the reminder Dave about this, one of my great uncles was captured at the fall of Singapore and had the dubious pleasure of being a guest of the emperor on the Burma Road. He was British Army though, not NZ.
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Post by smithy on Feb 9, 2017 7:10:00 GMT 12
I second the tip to watch this on the Tube. There's a lot of photos from Don's book but also some new ones and others which aren't in the book including the brilliant message on the final bomb tossed from a RNZAF A-4K.
Essential viewing for anyone even vaguely interested in our old Skyhawks. The included info by Don on the F-16 deal, its costs and benefits should really be much wider knowledge to the NZ public - I'd hazard a guess that 99.9% of Kiwis have no idea of just how amazing an offer the Yanks were offering NZ and just how much we lost by binning it.
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