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Post by phil on Nov 14, 2009 8:16:59 GMT 12
no money for a global hawk Umm... not that far out of left field. |
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Post by the_flying_surfer on Nov 14, 2009 9:09:54 GMT 12
MOAB's???
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 14, 2009 21:57:23 GMT 12
Will the NZDF be arming the Army's model planes?
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Post by 30sqnatc on Nov 14, 2009 23:17:38 GMT 12
Will the NZDF be arming the Army's model planes? Ngati kamakazi armed with a grenade ;D |
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Post by corokid66 on Nov 14, 2009 23:23:50 GMT 12
Good god we have a few Mk 82's and some Mav's. I'm tired of the excuses and that the very low level of combat capability is regarded as somehow OK. Its not. It is completely unacceptable for a first world nation to be in this position.  |
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Post by smithy on Nov 15, 2009 15:03:28 GMT 12
If people seriously believe the situation for new fighters, or retention of the old ones, is dead, then get into bed with the RAAF. Formally arrange to place RNZAF pilots on RAAF squadrons, then seek agreed levels of basing for RAAF squadrons in NZ for various periods during each year, much the same as what the RAAF already do for the Singaporeans and Malaysians under the Five Power Defence Agreement. New Zealand used to do this with the Skyhawks and I am betting the odd P3 still deploys forward occasionally. Sorry this was from a few days back but this seriously has to be one of the most sensible and practical solutions. It's also realistically doable. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 15, 2009 15:07:57 GMT 12
I agree Tim, and it's great to see you back here mate.
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Post by smithy on Nov 15, 2009 15:16:19 GMT 12
I agree Tim, and it's great to see you back here mate. Thanks Dave  There's been too much moving countries! |
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Post by skyhawkdon on Dec 9, 2009 6:47:08 GMT 12
Surprise... surprise ;D www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3140993/Skyhawks-may-end-up-as-spare-partsSkyhawks may end up as spare parts By MARTIN KAY - The Dominion Post Last updated 05:00 09/12/2009 The mothballed air force Skyhawks could end up being used for engineering practice amid concerns the American company that wants to buy them has not got the $150 million the Government wants. Associate Defence Minister Heather Roy said she was considering other options to dispose of the 17 Skyhawks and 17 Aermacchi trainers in case Arizona's Tactical Air Services failed to raise the cash. She said the Government could have to pay up to $35m to overhaul the planes if the sale proceeds, though the final figure would depend on their condition at the time. TAS signed an agreement to buy the 34 planes in September 2005 for US$110m (NZ$154m) but the sale was held up for four years because of the tortuous process required to get approval from the United States Government. Final signoff was given in October and TAS agreed to continue with the purchase – though it is not at present contractually obliged to – after two pilots visited Ohakea air base to inspect the Aermacchis. Mrs Roy said the company was already satisfied the Skyhawks were fit for purchase. But she said TAS had yet to come up with the cash and she was working on a "plan B" in case the sale did not proceed. "TAS have to come up with the money, and I'll only be confident when I see a signed sales and purchase agreement, which is why I'm exploring other options." The Government was hopeful the sale would continue, as TAS had a US Defence Department contract to train pilots and was seeking partners to help with finance. Repeated efforts to contact TAS chief executive Larry "Hoss" Pearson yesterday were unsuccessful. Mrs Roy said she wanted the planes disposed of one way or the other by the next election. There had been interest from another US buyer, and although that would be the preferred option if the TAS deal failed, it would mean another long wait for US Government approval. She would not name the potential second buyer. Other options included making the Skyhawks available for ground engineers to practise on at Woodbourne air base near Blenheim, where they are in storage. They could also be used for spare parts or, as a last resort, sold as scrap metal. The Aermacchis could be reintroduced to train pilots, although selling them separately was also a possibility as it did not require US approval. Doubt about the TAS sale is the latest twist in a saga that began when the Labour government said it would scrap the combat wing of the air force. The bill for storing the planes since 2001 is already well over $12m. Should the TAS sale go ahead, the proceeds will be further eroded by the cost of "regenerating" the planes. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 9, 2009 7:37:40 GMT 12
How about another option, as they're building up the RNZAF Historic Flight at Ohakea to a point where it will be the largest operational squadron soon, why not make it a "Training Unit" and put them back into service as "historic aircraft" with younger trainees being posted there after Mechs course to keep the aircraft maintained in operational condition. That would get round having to sell or scrap them, they become essential training aids, the pilots get to fly them, and we have a reserve of operational attack aircraft. Plus it adds legitimacy to the Historic Flight which really seems odd in that money can be poured into it but not at operational areas that need it...
Now, back to reality.
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Post by turboNZ on Dec 9, 2009 11:01:40 GMT 12
Sooo,...when are they getting rid of the Herks, P3's and the new NH-90's so we can up the welfare budget for the bludgers.....  Would be funny,...if it may not be a future possibility.... |
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Post by yogi on Dec 9, 2009 17:10:35 GMT 12
Surprise... surprise ;D www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3140993/Skyhawks-may-end-up-as-spare-partsSkyhawks may end up as spare parts By MARTIN KAY - The Dominion Post Last updated 05:00 09/12/2009 The mothballed air force Skyhawks could end up being used for engineering practice amid concerns the American company that wants to buy them has not got the $150 million the Government wants. Associate Defence Minister Heather Roy said she was considering other options to dispose of the 17 Skyhawks and 17 Aermacchi trainers in case Arizona's Tactical Air Services failed to raise the cash. She said the Government could have to pay up to $35m to overhaul the planes if the sale proceeds, though the final figure would depend on their condition at the time. TAS signed an agreement to buy the 34 planes in September 2005 for US$110m (NZ$154m) but the sale was held up for four years because of the tortuous process required to get approval from the United States Government. Final signoff was given in October and TAS agreed to continue with the purchase – though it is not at present contractually obliged to – after two pilots visited Ohakea air base to inspect the Aermacchis. Mrs Roy said the company was already satisfied the Skyhawks were fit for purchase. But she said TAS had yet to come up with the cash and she was working on a "plan B" in case the sale did not proceed. "TAS have to come up with the money, and I'll only be confident when I see a signed sales and purchase agreement, which is why I'm exploring other options." The Government was hopeful the sale would continue, as TAS had a US Defence Department contract to train pilots and was seeking partners to help with finance. Repeated efforts to contact TAS chief executive Larry "Hoss" Pearson yesterday were unsuccessful. Mrs Roy said she wanted the planes disposed of one way or the other by the next election. There had been interest from another US buyer, and although that would be the preferred option if the TAS deal failed, it would mean another long wait for US Government approval. She would not name the potential second buyer. Other options included making the Skyhawks available for ground engineers to practise on at Woodbourne air base near Blenheim, where they are in storage. They could also be used for spare parts or, as a last resort, sold as scrap metal. The Aermacchis could be reintroduced to train pilots, although selling them separately was also a possibility as it did not require US approval. Doubt about the TAS sale is the latest twist in a saga that began when the Labour government said it would scrap the combat wing of the air force. The bill for storing the planes since 2001 is already well over $12m. Should the TAS sale go ahead, the proceeds will be further eroded by the cost of "regenerating" the planes. crikey... Interesting though. I wonder what the chances of the macchis being reintroduced are, It would sure be a win if that were to eventually happen. What a shame it would be to have the lot sold as scrap!! Mind you anyone can buy scrap cant they  |
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Post by motoxjase on Dec 9, 2009 18:00:39 GMT 12
What a F.<kin Joke!!!
Two Goverments so far have made a bulls-up of the Skyhawk issue so what next??
I so wish the TAB was taking bets on the out come of the Skyhawk way back when they were withdrawn as I think I along with others would be line for some big winnings!!
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Post by nige on Dec 9, 2009 18:47:36 GMT 12
So, finally the "sale" is over. The thing then would be to get the Minister's to warm to the idea of reintroducing the Macchi's - at least it's not being ruled out according to the article, but it ain't a certainty of course. What more can we do to bring public pressure then on the Govt?
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Post by corokid66 on Dec 9, 2009 20:11:30 GMT 12
What a F.<kin Joke!!! Two Goverments so far have made a bulls-up of the Skyhawk issue so what next?? I so wish the TAB was taking bets on the out come of the Skyhawk way back when they were withdrawn as I think I along with others would be line for some big winnings!! Yes - absolutely very good odds. Odds on that the Macchi's will be back in a limited way for pilot training. If this falls over then there is no alternative. Its either museum off the A-4's and using the Macchi's OR handing them over to Crusher Collins. If I was advising John Key right now - I would be turning the screws on Goff via his former defence role and influential place in the cabinet. Absolutely giving him and labour a kicking over this. Generally one has to seriously question the quality of advice that the Ministers have been getting, if this is the case. Possibly the advisors have been starved of 'orthodox' defence thinking for some time since we have had the roadblocks caused by the N issue. Seriously - what modern country other then the mad irish would would completely neuter its air combat capability, half neuter its naval combat force and give its army twice the number of LAV's it needs. |
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Post by caromeg on Dec 9, 2009 21:30:13 GMT 12
In one "fowl" swoop the Nats could hammer Labour, deal to pilot training, enhance RNZAF morale, train the Army in CAS FAC et al, and support the Navy in its counter Air Mission. Air Affairs wont be too happy.
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Post by yogi on Dec 9, 2009 21:47:58 GMT 12
shiny new
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Post by nige on Dec 9, 2009 22:05:55 GMT 12
Who and what's the issue with "Air Affairs"?!
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Post by nige on Dec 9, 2009 22:12:33 GMT 12
Zee other thing is, what's the story behind the apparent $35Mill for the Govt to fork out to overhaul the aircraft (is that A4's only or A4's + MB339's) if the "sale" went ahead? I know several of you people here have said there would be regeneration costs of the order of many millions, but $35M??? And is that because the A4's ceased being maintained many years ago i.e. if the A4's were maintained like the MB339's were eg flown monthly, would the regeneration costs been significantly less ... or nil? Skyhawkdon et al - what's your opinion?
After all, $12M to mothball/store v $35M to regenerate, crickey, some expert consultant got their maths wrong (or the pollies simply didn't listen at the time - nevermind it's only taxpayer money down the drain they must have thought back in those times of budget surpluses of billions of dollars per year)!
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Post by skyhawkdon on Dec 10, 2009 7:05:52 GMT 12
The $35M to regenerate them is the Air Force's latest estimate for both fleets but is still well short of what it will actually cost. As the statement says until they actually start the regeneration they won't get a real idea of how much it will cost and how long it will take. They are in for a shock if they go down that road!
I understand the Macchis also need quite a bit of work to get them up to the conditions of sale (i.e. with a minimum of 100 flying hours on each airframe and 300 hours on each engine at handover). Up to 15 of them will need an airframe IRAN (Inspect and Repair As Necessary) Check servicing which used to take 3 months per airframe (when we had the people and workshops to do it). If the deal falls over and the Air Force brings some Macchi's back into service they will still have to do these servicings so I wouldn't be surprised if we see something happening with Macchi servicings early next year.
As for the $12M cost of mothballing/maintaining them for the last 8 years - that is bollocks. It's a lot more than that. It has been costing about $300k per month (by the Governments own admission over the years) including the cost of flying the Macchis. $300 x 8 years x 12 months comes to about $30M.
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