|
Post by nige on Dec 10, 2009 8:25:15 GMT 12
Thanks Don (core blimey ehhh)!
Do you mean 100 hours per airframe of actual flying?
If so that would be good times for those remaining two(?) qualified Macchi pilots.
Looks like the Govt ought to fund a few extra personnel (pilots, ground crew, reservists?) to realistically get these Macchis' up to scratch for a "sale". May as well get the ball rolling for when the Macchi's return into RNZAF service ... ;D
(And sorry, can't remember the name of the building as the F16 thread's been closed, but isn't there supposed to be a nice large workshop being built after the new 3 Sqn hangar? There we go, somewhere to regenerate the aircraft) ;D
|
|
|
Post by chewy on Dec 10, 2009 15:41:05 GMT 12
To regenerate the Skyhawks they should have been ordering the spares years ago. There can be up to a three year lead time on some parts. When i was in the mob we were getting some spares robbed off airframes in the desert. Getting small batch spares will cost the earth. Getting Macchi spares was even harder as all military exports had to be approved by the Italian parlament and each one could take up to six months.
|
|
|
Post by skyhawkdon on Dec 10, 2009 18:00:30 GMT 12
Ejection seat carts for the Skyhawks are the biggest headache for regeneration in terms of spares. Some of the carts aren't available new any more. They could be manufactured at a price, but each batch has to be batch tested and certified 100% reliable before being released to the customer. The lead time is around 18 months and the price - well you can name it! Or you could just relife the existing carts... not sure I'd be too happy flying them like that though. Then there are the 414 frames that will have to be manufactured - again an 18 month lead time. CFG spares - no one is still using our version of the CFG anywhere in the world. You will probably need to buy a new generator and certify it for the Skyhawk - $0.5M per airframe is my guess on that alone. Most of the Kahu kit is an orphan and now totally unsupportable. People in the US will fix it for a price I'm sure - US$250k to repair an INU, radar LRU or HUD (that was the price we were paying in 2001!). You do the maths...
|
|
|
Post by nige on Dec 11, 2009 9:38:58 GMT 12
Thanks for the info Don!
I would say that most, if not all of us here on this forum would be generally happy if the Govt restored 2, 14 and 75 Sqn's again, but future Whitepaper findings aside, it doesn't seem at all that there is the political will to do so, thus this will be very, very unlikley, pretty much negligible etc.
So that leaves Plan B, which is to get the Govt to restore some/most of the Macchis (and who knows, maybe several of the A4's, maybe, maybe not???) for those roles that Hawkeye mentions above. If so, who knows, maybe in the near future there could very well be a need to restore an operational strike sqn again. But at least with the Macchis (or maybe something else) NZ has the ability and knowledge to expand this small training sqn etc. It's all we got really (otherwise it's nothing, like it is now).
So I think, especially withyour influence or at least dealings with the likes of Heather Roy, that despite the costs to regenerate some Macchis (or some Skyhawks, or maybe something else sitting in storage in the US etc) that we are "positive" about these costs, after all, assuming they don't come from existing RNZAF budgets, but instead additional Govt funding, the tens or so millions to achive this (plus again several million for extra new support crews etc) is really at the end of the day small change for the Govt. Granted getting spares won't be easy because of the extra costs and hassles, but even restoring a training sqn won't happen overnight, in other words where there is a will there is a way.
No doubt at NZ Govt to US Govt level talks, if this NZ Govt showed an interest, I have no doubt the US would assist NZ restore a training sqn (it could even be other aircraft, not necessarily Macchis), let alone an operational combat sqn...
We know the original F-16 lease came about in similar circumstances (and it was intriguing to read Hawkeye say M1A1's and Bradley's were on offer - I would have thought Bradley's would have been useful for the NZ Army, esp as the M113's/Scorpions were wearing out at the time???), so anything is possible.
I suppose of course the fear is that any restored Macchi's (and maybe Skyhawks) are thus fit for a sale i.e. desirable. I guess then we somehow have to get the Govt off the Labour route of wanting to sell them (after all, there's plenty of other aircraft out there suitable for overseas training companies etc). It is still a bit disconcerting to still hear Heather Roy talk of needing to have them sold before the next general election (again, is the Govt pre-determining the outcome of the Whitepaper???), because it sounds exactly like desperate Labour speak to me. Maybe the NZDF should take Mapp and Roy on a trip to Australia and elsewhere and actually see and talk to overseas air combat squadrons, when they are carrying them at the time to see other operational areas etc.
|
|
|
Post by caromeg on Dec 11, 2009 10:41:54 GMT 12
I think the issues well articulated by Don have been raised before (probably by him) and are no surprise . For the government to re-activate the A-4 a significant amount of time and money will need to be spent which is outside the bang for buck envelope. The alternative would be to engage NZ industry to provide the support required on the basis that this would be the airframe for the next 20 + yrs!!!. I doubt this would occur as it wouldn't be cost effective and NZDF is not the best at long term business/vision. It aslo would require a significant outputs change that is perhaps not part of the current defence review.
Although I sort of know the front end of an aircraft from the back, I am well outside the area of expertise on airframe logistics so as a layman I would venture that; Based on the age of the A-4, The fact that we stopped operating them, with all the issues of part supply above, and; Despite was anyone says they wont have done well sitting out in the open, doing nothing, the horse has bolted on the old A-4.
The key issue with the Machhi fleet is that we have kept engaged with them as a fleet and they could be brought on line - with cost I'm sure. They also (despite any claim otherwise) are not a bonifide combat aircraft. So they CAN be justified against exiting outputs. It could knock the Kingair replacement into touch and this is a descision for the Air Force to make.
I think they would be the best thing for NZDF. Apart from all the uses I previously identified, they bring some good culture back into the RNZAF and posture it for other capabilities in the future. I know for certain that they also do wonders for navigation and descision making skills for all aircrew. Something that does have flow on benefit for all airframe types/ roles. I think we sometimes forget that a significant part of the NZDF is in the hands of RNZAF Aircrew on a daily basis. I can tell you from vast experience that anywhere you go in the world its just not the same as being on a Kiwi Herc, or P-3 (or Warship for that matter). Long may it stay that way and to that end, activating a tool such as the machhi to hammer that issue home is peanuts.
|
|
|
Post by skyhawkdon on Dec 11, 2009 11:28:19 GMT 12
I agree. The Skyhawks are toast. They will end up at GTW and in Museums. They have had their day.
ACT want the Macchi's back in service, but National do not (for no other reason that the cost of operating them). They are expensive to operate and maintain, but their capital cost is a sunk cost and since we can't seem to be able to sell them to anyone, why not start using them again? For the last 8 years they have been litterally burning money and holes in the sky keeping them operational for the sale. So long as they sit here they continue to cost us money. Why not put them to use?
Hopefully common sense will prevail in 2010 for both the Skyhawk and Macchi fleets.
|
|
|
Post by corokid66 on Dec 11, 2009 12:26:06 GMT 12
This is my solution from ideas pinched and pillaged from all over the place: Including those excellent posts above! Loan the A-4’s to Museums in both NZ and Australia e.g RAN, but also store 2 T-Birds and 2 Models with the RNZAF for a future Historic Flight project – 2 to eventually be regenerated to fly the other 2 for parts – but leave that for the future to worry about. Any other A-4’s not gifted go straight to the GTW. I agree, forget trying to have them fly or have some sort of operational use. The A-4’s era is over, – their time has now past, – let them finally retire with honour. However, the Macchi’s – that is different. That can be saved. Take the $35m of re-generation funding that would have been earmarked for the A-4/Macchi and allocate it all towards the ‘Macchi II’ project. The A-4’s wont need it and any Historic Flight regeneration can come out of another budget in the future). Add the $75m allocated under the LTDP for the Advanced Training project. That gives a total of $110m. Put 8 Macchi’s through a ‘Batch II’ type bells and whistles upgrade like the Italians Air Force did with their analog era MB-339C’s. They turned them into very capable aircraft – a pdf file that Barnsey posted on another thread shows what it is all about - so have a good look for that using the search function. Have the upgrade contract (it uses OTS components) sourced to a Kiwi Company – local jobs etc… plenty of work for you Don! This Kiwi ‘Macchi II’ version would include detuning the Viper to make it more reliable and possibly more economical. It cost the Italians around NZ$5.5m to give their Macchi’s the full monty upgrade. Back of the envelop calculation would mean we could do 8 Macchi II upgrades for under $45m. This then would still leave $65m for the Multi-engined training aircraft project, which would probably be enough to acquire 4 new Beech B300CER’s which is sort of a stretched B200 with Cargo doors, ER winglets and underwing hardpoints. 12 modern aircraft that can transform the NZDF for what is bugger all in the scheme of things. Happy campers all round. Not bloody rocket science is it now! Down the track in a couple of years I - if I was allowed ny way would add 2 more airframes to the 'Macchi II' upgrade making it 10 in total and add at least three more AW-109LUH's to bring them up to 8. With that and the return of the C-130's, the P-3's, the arrival of the NH-90's and AW-109's, the RNZAF would look like a great little air force.
|
|
|
Post by angelsonefive on Dec 11, 2009 12:56:51 GMT 12
I agree with Hawkeye and Skyhawkdon.
Our fleet of A4Ks and TA4Ks is no longer viable. For economic reasons, and probably other reasons as well. As for the Macchis, well, I have my doubts. After all they are trainers. They were a lead in to the Skyhawk. Unless the Skyhawks are replaced with F-16s or similar there is, in my opinion, no real role for the Macchi. But before we do anything else we need to decide if the A4s need to be replaced at all and if so, what with.
Before we can make any decisions we must decide where any threat in the next 15 or 20 years is likely to come from. And the most likely threat is fairly obvious, though we do not like to think about it, let alone talk about it.
Indonesia. We have as a near neighbour the most populous Moslem nation on earth. It is not inconceivable that Indonesia could someday be a fundamentalist, Mullah-ruled Islamic republic, a Southern Hemisphere equivalent of present day Iran and, like Iran, a regional troublemaker.
If that should happen we could expect a low level insurgency, supported from outside, in PNG. The aim and object of that insurgency to bring the whole of New Guinea under Indonesian control. Look for an example to Indonesia's 'confrontation' of the brand new nation of Malaysia in the early 1960s. Australia would go to the aid of PNG and, in my opinion, so would NZ. There would be little need for air superiority fighters other than Australia's F-18s in such a conflict but close air support (CAS) for the grunts on the ground will be vital, and this is where NZ could play a valuable part. So, in my opinion, our govt should be looking right now for a CAS aircraft, fixed wing or rotary, with the ability to operate in rugged conditions and from basic runways, that is if runways are needed at all.
|
|
|
Post by corokid66 on Dec 11, 2009 16:15:44 GMT 12
Information relating to the Batch II Macchi's of the Italian Air Force. www.alenia-aeronautica.it/Eng/Media/news/Documents/new141_1.pdfYou cannot compare the current state or capability of the Kiwi Macchi's to this. It now makes completely irrelevant the 'they have no role' comments. MMMM.....how about advanced pilot training for starters or the wider training of close air support with the army or working up frigates or even god forbid using it as a developmental platform to provide lead in training to actually get back a full working air combat component. This is what the upgraded Macchi's can do. Fact is that a small defence force like NZ has always gone for and should undertake the multi-role air combat option like we did with the A-4. A platform than do an number of tasks rather than specailize in a single platform to do a role. An upgraded Macchi can at least get us onto the training cycle and a step back into the game when or if required. Its either this way or off to Crusher Collins!
|
|
|
Post by obiwan27 on Dec 11, 2009 16:23:39 GMT 12
I have the read the above comments from skyhawkdon, hawkeye, etc etc with interest. I think you are right, the Skyhawks are gone burger as far as operational RNZAF aircraft goes. The Macchis could be a starter but political willpower is lacking. Write to your local MP, the Minister of Defence, PM etc Now!!. As many of you know I am currently holidaying in Singapore and have recently visited the RSAF Museum, pictures etc on a separate thread. Anyway it was refreshing to visit a Museum that reflects the great deal of pride and support of the people and Government towards the armed forces of Singapore and particularly the RSAF. Basically they were going to be left in the lurch by the British Govt's then decision in 1968 to withdraw all of their armed forces east of the Suez canal by 1971. this caused a great deal of consternation at the time but the Singapore Govt set about building up their own independent air force and basically went from strength to strength, now possessing one of the region's most modern and well equipped military, let alone air force. Naturally the situation here is completely different from NZ strategically and historically and politically. Who knows, had NZ actually been attacked (like Australia) or invaded during WW2 then NZers and the NZ governments' attitude towards our defence force could have been quite different. however reality is that largely NZers are sadly ignorant and complacent about these kinds of issues and politicians are too afraid of being voted out in the next election to make some sensible decisions about this kind of issue. I say when in government you GOVERN, not worry about the next freakin' election. Ok enough of the political tinge on this comment but here's hoping some common sense may prevail.......that;s my Christmas wish :-D
|
|
|
Post by dav3469 on Dec 12, 2009 12:34:22 GMT 12
In regards to the comments about the macchi's, besides training and the other uses that have been previously talked about (Army cooperation/Navy training), do the aircraft have the capability to be used as "homeland defense" type aircraft?
I realize that they are not true fighters, but if these aircraft were returned to service could they be used to for example intercept a wayward airliner/hijacked civil aircraft?
Or even something similar to when your A-4's were used in the illegal fishing boat situation?
I am not real familiar with the aircrafts performance and load carrying abilities. Could it do these types of missions?
|
|
|
Post by skyhawkdon on Dec 12, 2009 14:26:33 GMT 12
They don't have a radar and the NZ version can only carry rockets, gun pods and practice bombs. With some modifications and clearance trials they could carry Sidewinder and Maveric missiles as well as various types of bombs. So to answer your question not really. Most airliners can fly further, higher and faster than them (same for the Skyhawk).
|
|
|
Post by dav3469 on Dec 12, 2009 17:32:37 GMT 12
Thanks for that info. Having to use ground controlled intercepts is one thing, but not being able to keep up is another.
|
|
|
Post by caromeg on Dec 12, 2009 18:05:53 GMT 12
Naturally the situation here is completely different from NZ strategically and historically and politically. Who knows, had NZ actually been attacked (like Australia) or invaded during WW2 then NZers and the NZ governments' attitude towards our defence force could have been quite different. however reality is that largely NZers are sadly ignorant and complacent about these kinds of issues and politicians are too afraid of being voted out in the next election to make some sensible decisions about this kind of issue. I say when in government you GOVERN, not worry about the next freakin' election. Ok enough of the political tinge on this comment but here's hoping some common sense may prevail.......that;s my Christmas wish :-D] |
Its funny you raise this, the germans actually laid a seabed mine it the cook straight in the vicinity of Wellington Harbour. When this was explained to me at the time many commented on how the loss of a Ferry would have impacted our defence Policy for the next 50 yrs....
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 12, 2009 21:40:15 GMT 12
The Germans also laid sea mines in other parts of NZ's coastal waters which resulted in the loss of the RMS Niagara off the Hen and Chicken Islands, and that incident definately made a difference to things for those people who were defending NZ and policies being carried out.
Even nowadays it would be fairly simple for another country or faction to use well armed, fast raider type ships to wreak havoc in our waterways like the Germans were doing in the early part of the war. The Marlborough Sounds alledged double murder involving an alledged sloop proves how things can happen in the waterways undetected till it's too late. It wouldn't necessarily take aircraft carriers and submarines to upset our economical, political and military stability I don't think.
|
|
|
Post by caromeg on Dec 12, 2009 21:45:52 GMT 12
I think the significance of the Wellington Mines were that the loss of life might have been greater and right on the capital's doorstep hence the impact on policy. Its interesting that not many people are aware of wat did go on in NZ during World War two, I'm no expert but German and Japanese Subs did ventrue down here on several occasions including an overflight of Auckland via sub launched aircraft.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 12, 2009 21:59:54 GMT 12
Yes, the Japs overflew Auckland twice and also Wellington. Subs were active in our waters and the RNZAF were certainly hunting them but had no success (though one No. 2 Squadron veteran told me that after a week of peaked activity at Nelson with Hudsons flying hourly on searches, the CO Jack Busch lined up the groundcrew toi thank them all and said that they had been tracking a sub and sunk it. I have not yet found any evidence of the sinking). There's a book about a German submarine that came to NZ in 1944. I got it recently on TradeMe but haven't read it yet. I have heard many stories about someone on the Wellington to Christchurch ferry spotting a torpedo comingat them and it just missed the stern. This witness was a serviceman and had seen them before in more risky waters so knew what he was seeing, so the story goes. Again, I'd like to see some proof.
It's amazing there was no loss of life when the Niagara went down.
|
|
|
Post by motoxjase on Dec 13, 2009 6:17:09 GMT 12
For me the Question I would love to ask John Key is "do you really think our defense policy as a whole is up to scratch?" Im just joe-average middle class white guy but even I know that our Defense policy is really lacking and that shows in our lack of a Combat-Wing, to me the fact that we have some of the biggest areas in the world to pratrol and we yet we have no way of protecting what is ours is just plain crazy. Last week on Close-up I caught the last parts of an interview with a family member of the Kennedy Clan who is coming here to NZ to do some speeches and the bit that interested me was when he was asked about what he knew of NZ and his reply was along the lines off "its one off the last bastions for the left-Wing Commie Hippies" (something like that) and its true and it shows in all our Goverment policies not just Defense.
|
|
|
Post by flyjoe180 on Dec 13, 2009 9:43:33 GMT 12
The politicians seem to forget they are there to serve us.
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jan 9, 2010 12:54:30 GMT 12
Any truth in the rumour that the Macchis are all crated up and ready to be frieghted ?
|
|