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Post by Bruce on Oct 14, 2005 19:41:30 GMT 12
Time to get the research books out again..... 1. On Air NZ DC-10s, how many wheels were on the landing gear (Main and nose)? 2. What aircraft type did SAFE (Straits Air Freight Express) start operations with? 3. The first regular air service to the Chatham Islands used which aircraft type? 4. Which NZ operator used two DC-3s and later two Friendships for important non - scheduled operations? 5. Which airline first introduced the Embraer Bandeirante into NZ service? 6. what is NZs southernmost airport with a scheduled air service? 7. Where is NZs only privately operated Aviation radio navigation Beacon (an NDB for those in the know) Located? 8. What were the first Cessna aircraft in NZ (2 of them) and who were they imported for? 9. What was the name of the DC3 that crashed in the Kaimai Range in 1963? 10. In the 1960s A Grumman Mallard Amphibian was used to support which Civil engineering project? O.K. you know the drill; away you go....
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Post by DragonflyDH90 on Oct 14, 2005 21:31:30 GMT 12
All these answers are off the top of my head so will probably be way off the mark, but here goes.
2. Argosy 3. Metroliner 5. Eagle Air 6. Stuart Island (airport), Mason Bay or Doughboy Bay (landing area) but probably doesnt fit the scheduled bit. 8. Cessna 180 imported for Air Safari Tekapo, Richard Rayward
Just a few guesses......
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 15, 2005 11:52:15 GMT 12
1. On Air NZ DC-10s, how many wheels were on the landing gear (Main and nose)?
10
2. What aircraft type did SAFE (Straits Air Freight Express) start operations with?
C-46 Commando
3. The first regular air service to the Chatham Islands used which aircraft type?
RNZAF Sunderland?
4. Which NZ operator used two DC-3s and later two Friendships for important non - scheduled operations?
The Calibration Flight?
5. Which airline first introduced the Embraer Bandeirante into NZ service?
Definately Eagle Air, which was run by Malcolm Campbell then
6. what is NZs southernmost airport with a scheduled air service?
Scott Base ;D
8. What were the first Cessna aircraft in NZ (2 of them) and who were they imported for?
Cessna Bobcat/Cranes used as liason aircraft by the US military
9. What was the name of the DC3 that crashed in the Kaimai Range in 1963?
ZK-AYZ "Hastings"
10. In the 1960s A Grumman Mallard Amphibian was used to support which Civil engineering project?
Adding the Nippon Clip-ons to the Auckland Harbour Bridge perhaps?
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 15, 2005 17:40:36 GMT 12
Okay, here we go again.
1. 12?
10. Lake Manapouri Power Station?
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Post by Bruce on Oct 15, 2005 18:29:41 GMT 12
O.K, lets see how we're going here.... 1. 12 Air NZ had DC10-30s which had an extra main landing gear leg with two wheels. the trick is however that this leg can operate independently and often, for reasons unknown to me, when operating light the leg was left retracted - some photos show this - Arent I tricky 2. C46 Commando, 3 leased from Taiwan to get the airline started while waiting for the Bristol freighters. Hurried along due to waterfront disputes increasing freight demand. 3. RNZAF Sunderland - 1958 (Dave youve edited some of your ansers since you first posted them ! 4. Dept of Transport Civil Aviation Division calibration flight, AKA Civair. 5. Eagle Air (my first flight was in ZK-ERU not long after it arrived - such a significant aircraft is now in a museum (Tauwhare Military Museum) near Cambridge.) 6. Not Quite Scott Base - Dragonfly is close, but the correct name is required. 7. Still got you all stumped.... its a REALLY unusual location - Off shore a little bit. 8. Yes the Cessna Bobcat is correct - but the intended user isnt - keep trying. 9. ZK- AYZ "Hastings" - but for a bonus point (or Karma) what name did it have before its "Skyliner" conversion? 10. Manapouri Power project - shuttling between Invercargill, deep cove and Manpouri carrying anything that would fit in the door! Lovely looking machine..... So really well done guys - I have to work hard to get tricky ones for you! just 6. 7 and 8 to tidy up.....
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 15, 2005 19:22:27 GMT 12
1. 12 Air NZ had DC10-30s which had an extra main landing gear leg with two wheels. the trick is however that this leg can operate independently and often, for reasons unknown to me, when operating light the leg was left retracted - some photos show this - Arent I tricky Where was the extra leg? I'm confused about this, never heard of it. Was it only specifically Air NZ ones?Dave youve edited some of your ansers since you first posted them ! Indeed I did, but before any answers were put up by you, so it isn't cheating. Just reassessing... 4. Dept of Transport Civil Aviation Division calibration flight, AKA Civair. Who does the calibration these days? Is it still them? Has anyone got photos of the F27's they flew?.5. Eagle Air (my first flight was in ZK-ERU not long after it arrived - such a significant aircraft is now in a museum (Tauwhare Military Museum) near Cambridge.) To be more technicaly correct it's "outside" a museum, not in it, and not in good shape, with lots of birds nests. Good that Andy Moreland has attempted to preserve it though, even if it's not under cover. 6. Not Quite Scott Base - Dragonfly is close, but the correct name is required. Ryan's Creek Airport, Stewart Island (coded SZS)7. Still got you all stumped.... its a REALLY unusual location - Off shore a little bit. Auckland Islands? Or Raoul Island perhaps?8. Yes the Cessna Bobcat is correct - but the intended user isnt - keep trying. I had remembered this from some dim memory, so the purpose is fuzzy.... Was it possibly for use by the US Ambassador?9. ZK- AYZ "Hastings" - but for a bonus point (or Karma) what name did it have before its "Skyliner" conversion? NZ3528?
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 15, 2005 19:44:06 GMT 12
Wow, I'm impressed: Manapouri was a wild stab in the dark! How long did the Mallard operate for?
Dave, the extra leg was used when the DC-10 had a heavy load onboard, but I don't know if it was an Air New Zealand operator specific modification or not. The website 'airliners.net' has a couple of pages of photos of Air NZ DC-10s, some of which show the 'jake-the-peg' gear.
Anyway, here's my attempt at No. 7 again........
7. Kermadec Island?
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Post by Bruce on Oct 15, 2005 21:49:13 GMT 12
#7 I made a small oops with the clue which may have put you off a bit, The actual beacon is onshore, but is used primarily for offshore overwater flights - It is located in the north Island. The owner of the beacon is the only user of it. If you have access to aviation documents, check the Radio Navigation and communication facilities listing in NZAIP vol 4 Gen 3.7. The Identifier (which wont give you any clues) is MCC on 338kHZ.
#6 Ryans Creek is correct, there probably are airstrips further south, but no regular services go there. Ryans Creek has a regular link with Invercargill via Southern Air.
#8 and #9Bonus question still arent there but I'll leave you in suspense for the rest of the weekend.
Re DC10 legs, the centre leg is the main difference between series 30 DC10s and earlier variants. It is not a specific Air NZ fitting, as all series 30s (the most common model) have them. It was added due to the increased all up weight of this long range model. I presume ground handling may be easier with it retracted, but certainly it was not always used.
re question 4, I'm a little out of touch, but when I was in the airline business in 2000, Airways was leasing a Mitsubishi MU2 turboprop to do the work - I guess they still have a similar arrangement. I'd like to see any pics of the Civair F27s, I recall seeing them buzzing around occaisionally when I was younger. Dark blue stripes and a red tail fin - looked really good. I think that would make a great decal set for a model - the DC-3s looked good as well.
Re the Mallard - I think it worked for BBO (Bloxham Burnett and Oliver - the power station contractors) for about 5 years - the duration of the main tunneling project. If you have a copy of "Golden Age of NZ flying boats" Theres a picture of it on page 287, beside two TAT Widgeons at Deep cove. The Workers for the power station tailrace tunnel were accomodated in the former Trans Tasman liner Wanganella which was moored in the cove, and the Mallard was about the only way essential mail, supplies and passengers could get in - the road trip in took 4 or 5 hours!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 15, 2005 22:24:36 GMT 12
Thanks guys for the additional info on the DC-10. I wonder if any of the ex-Air NZ DC-10's are still flying. I remember the type got a bad name after several high profile crashes, so maybe not.
Regarding the DC-3 that crashed on the Kaimais, an interesting thing for me about that is my Dad went up there after the crash.He told me about it several times including recently before his death. He, like many people, became very concerned about the supposed rescue efforts after the aircraft crashed. Apparently the weather was appaulling, and though the crash site was known, the rescue co-ordinators were not keen to go up to the crash scene asthey felt it too dangerous in the conditions. It was impossible for a chopper to get in there due to fog.
I think he said it was a couple of days before the rescuers did anything. Anyway the local farmers had been urging the team to walk up by following the streams, which they said would lead them right to the plane crash site. The locals were ignored Dad said, and the rescue team decided to eventually make their way up a different route which would take much longer. I don't know exactly how it came about that Dad was there, curiosity and concern maybe, but he and a mate decided to go up themselves using the route recommended by the farmers. They were both deerstalkers and used to the terrain. So they hiked their way up and arrived at the scene shortly after the rescue team had arrived (who had set out long before Dad and his mate, so he felt they proved the farmers were right).
Once the bodies were removed, Dad and his mate both took photos. Dad had a black and white film, the other chap a coloured film. It sounds macarbe but I guess they felt the photos may be useful in the investigation. Anyway, the other chap apparently ended up getting in the way of the team and had his film confiscated and exposed making it useless. Dad was more discreet and his photos are still in existance. They portray a very sad event and show the extent of the impact.
Dad was disappointed that he was unaware till too late that Richard Waugh was writing a book on the crash, because he'd have gladly offered the photos. The book does not show anything like what Dad took. Dad also had some interesting info about the crash which was not in the book.
One thing he did tell me was some years later he was talking with a lady and the crash topic came up. She said she'd been a secretary in the Ministry of Transport, or whatever Goverment Dept that handled the investigation it was. She told Dad that some of the gross mishandling of the rescue was withheld from the public, including the fact that one of the bodies was missing form the plane. Around a month later, the missing woman was found down near the bottom fenceline where the farm paddocks started below the bush. The woman had walked all the way down there beside one of the streams, and then died. Had the resucers followed the streams up as instructed rather than camp and waiting days, she and maybe others may have been found alive. I hope a lot of lessons were learned from that debacle of an effort.
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Post by Bruce on Oct 15, 2005 22:37:36 GMT 12
I have Richard Waughs Book - its enough to get me keen to go and investigate over summer (If the weather ever clears up!) I think he paints a fairly balanced view, including showing the amazing things Mike Alexander and another early chopper pilot did. This was the first SAR operation where helecopters were involved and Mike had a hard job getting a foot in the door. The whole incident is subject to huge varience of opinion and scuttle butt, but according to the book (and from a Collegue at work who was a mate of the leader of the first party to reach the scene, the "survivor" had serious internal injuries and was found less than 15m from the wreck - the injuries were such that there was no hope of survival anyway. It is alos virtually impossible to reach the site directly up the mountain face - the gradients are too steep and the bush is too dense. The first Party got to the summit from behind - off Thompsons track and went from there to the crash site. This would be the way I intend to get there in a few months time. Must post photos when I get back.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 15, 2005 23:51:27 GMT 12
I have not fully read the book, just skimmed it and listened to what Dad had to say about it after he'd read and absorbed it. He liked the book and found it fascinating, but did mention it had missed some things he'd seen and heard. I simply cannot recall all the details he told me, I wish I'd wrote it down at the time but then I didn't know Dad was going to die.
The direct route was certainly not impossible because Dad did it. He mentioned that others also did it. His trekking up there to see the wreck and offer help was not unique he said. And Dad's photos prove he got up there so I cannot disbelieve it.
Regarding the survivor, yes her injuries may well have been severe and life threatening, but I don't know who to believe regarding the distance. As it was alledged by the woman who told Dad that it was a cover-up, you won't find anything official about her having walked down the hill, will you? Unless they have photos of where all the bodies were found I suppose.
You're right that there is rumour and scuttlebutt surrounding the event, which is unfortunate, and this info the lady told Dad may well be false. If so, it is very unfortunate, I cannot imagine why anyone would make that up.
The fact remains that the rescue team did do things wrong and that's well documented. If by the time they got there one passenger was found to have survived and died of inhjuries, who's to say others didn't that could have been saved? But it has to be remembered also the difficulty of the terrain, the atrocious weather and the lack of equipment that we'd have today to handle such a situation. Plus any rescue team no matter who they were, may never be prepared for such an event as a highcountry crash in dense and remote forest site. In terms of training any such team would have been very naiive compared with these days.
As for going up for a look, I assume you realise that the Army later (1968ish) went in and buried the wreck? Apparently this was becuase it was visible from a long distance, glinting in the sun on nice days, and muct have freaked people out. So you may not even find it.
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Post by Bruce on Oct 16, 2005 12:18:51 GMT 12
The army was only partly sucessful burying the wreck, There are still remains of the tail and wing on the site but it is well overgrown now. Photos taken in 2001 are in the book, and there is a plaque on the site. It is however very difficult to get to. I have located it on a topographic map from various information received and it looks like it is "doable but difficult". I do want to see the site, I have done for years, not as a morbid curiousity thing, just something I "need" to do. Certainly the direct route wouldnt be impossible - but would obviously take a far better bushman than my limited abilities. Would it be possible to see your Dads photos at some stage? Anyway - any more quiz answers? - I may let you out of your misery later tonight!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 16, 2005 14:24:13 GMT 12
Bruce, yeah, definately get in touch and I'll let you see the photos. I don't think they are appropriate for posting on the forum, they are very sad. But if we arrange a time to meet up you're welcome to take a look. I wish Dad was still here to tell you his experiences as he was always keen to pass on info about the crash for those who were genuinely interested.
As for the direct route, yeah Dad was a very experienced and very fit bushman, and had loads of determination too. I doubt I'd get up the top of the Kaimais even if I walked up the main road!
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Post by Bruce on Oct 16, 2005 20:18:41 GMT 12
O.k, to put you all out of your misery, Answers to the last few questions:
#7 is the Oaonui VOR-NdB in south Taranaki. It is adjacent to, and owned by the Shell Todd Oil Services natural gas terminal that receives gas etc from the Maui offshore Gas platforms. STOS have instrument flight approaches to thier heliport at Oaonui, and to each of the Maui platforms, giving them the ability to fly helicopters to the platforms in all weather. The Beacon is essential to these approaches, but is available solely for STOS use.
#8 part 2 - who were the Cessna Bobcats imported for - none other than the Ministry of Transport Civil Aviation Division. Airwork NZ handled the importation of them, but only one flew - down to Wellington where closer inspection showed major glue delamination (The Bobcat was a wooden aircraft) Obviously CAD would not accept that, and the aircraft was returned to auckland by train. Similar problems were found in the other machine - aparently they had been in the Pillippines and the humidity killed them. The Cessnas stayed at mangere for many years, in company with a Vickers Walrus, before falling victim to vandals and being broken up. At least one of the engines found its way into the Wellington Aero Clubs Beech 17.
#9 bonus question, ZK-AYZ enetered NAC service as "Powhera" as a standard DC3. (the NAC fleet were named after birds / animals with Maori names beginning with P). With the arrival of SPANZ and the rapid need to update the machines, the Skyliner conversion was carried out, fitting bigger windows (to compete with SPANZ's huge viewmaster windows), a major interior refit and a new colour scheme. In order to highlight NAC's provincial routes, each skyliner was named after a provincial city, and AYZ was renamed Hastings to publicise the new NAC route to Napier / Hastings.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 16, 2005 21:13:03 GMT 12
Cheers Bruce, really interesting stuff. When I googled to try to find your mystery beacon, I found one official looking page which stated there are several privately owned radio navigation beacons around NZ. I wonder if some are for shipping rather than aviation?
The Bobcat owners flood back to me now. I recall reading about that in Wings years ago.
Are any of the Skymaster conversions still around in NZ? I know the McDonalds DC-3 at Taupo is an ex-SPANZ Viewmaster.
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Post by Bruce on Oct 17, 2005 7:24:17 GMT 12
CAW is the only one left, BYD and BYE returned to Australia and thereafter South East Asia, believed scrapped / derelict in either Laos or Cambodia (Cant remember which) or some other similar country.
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