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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 9, 2010 10:47:16 GMT 12
In the case you are getting excited about, you are indulging in a wholesale sell out to pure commercial interests which will lead to a loss of sovereignty. IE: You will no longer have a sovereign right to your own airspace. It will be the sole domain of a foreign power...because there is absolutely nothing you can do to control it. I see your point clearly ON, and somewhat agree. I do not think this is a step towards the RNZAF getting anywhere. It's just a way of the NZ government making some cash, which of course won't all go back into Defence. And I still seriously think the idea of this being a step towards the RNZAF re-establishing a combat wing is fantasy - my previous comment inthis thread was meant in mirth but no-one took the bait. It has been well demonstrated that the Government and the heirachy of the RNZAF and NZDF do not want to go back down that route towards a fighter wing, and they cannot afford it, it's an impossibility. They can't even afford to lease some Hercs to cover our transport shortfall right now. As for losing sovereignty to our airspace, you're right but as I have said before that has long been chipped away to foreign civil flying training schools already who are using our airspace with little end benefit to NZ as a whole. But people in NZ won't give a damn in general, just like no-one kicks up a fuss that most of our fisheries are on-leased to foreign fishing companies from Asia and Russia and the likes. That has not done us any favours whatsoever - a great deal of our NZ fish is being caught by Chinese and Japanese and other vessels in our waters, where it is snap frozen, shipped to China and processed extremely cheaply, shipped back to NZ, and sold in our supermarkets as "fresh NZ fish" up to six months after it was caught. And that is why it costs so flipping much. But the public don't care because the label tells them it's "NZ" fish. I refuse to buy supermarket fish as it's plain wrong.
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Post by flycookie on Jan 9, 2010 11:55:49 GMT 12
.......Hillary Clinton is popping by NZ for a couple of days on the way to Aus. .........NZ would hardly be visited by such a top ranking US official in only the 2nd year of a new administration if it wasn't seen to be pulling its weight in international matters regionally or otherwise. Interesting theory, but, alas, not quite so. The role and gravamen of US Secretary of State is not what it was nor, with respect, what you seem to think it is. The last SecState of whom your thoughts were apposite was Jim Baker.
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Post by oldnavy on Jan 10, 2010 9:26:31 GMT 12
Look. I know this will be controversial to say, and it takes a leap way off thread, but if the state of NZ is so badly deteriorated as is being suggested here then something radical must be done. Think of Europe, think of ASEAN, even think about all the FTAs being signed up in our region. Now consider the closer links you have with Australia in terms of the Trans Tasman Trading Agreement. In the early discussions on the Federation of Australia, New Zealand was directly and intimately involved, only staying out for some local independence issues which were considered too important to lose at the time. With the passage of more than 100 years, requirements and attitudes have changed, and the shape of the potential solution is completely different. If you can't advocate or afford an independent Air Force, then what else can't you afford? Maybe we need a "European Union" style solution? In our region we could involve Pacific Island states, NZ, Aust and Singapore. The trading potential and benefits for the constituent countries would be significant, and the idea of having military training bases for the region based in NZ would be sensible.
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Post by SEAN on Jan 20, 2010 9:56:40 GMT 12
It would appear that Lockeed Martin are the new sponsors for the NZDF: www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3166107/Lockheed-Martin-wins-huge-NZ-Defence-dealI bet it won't be to long before they take over the maintenance of RNZAF Aircraft as well as the whole of NZDF logistics. What better way to make savings in logistics (under the DTP [LCP]) than contract it all out, and get rid of the infrastructure we currently have....
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Post by skyhawkdon on Mar 12, 2010 11:44:49 GMT 12
From what I'm hearing Sean you might not be far off the mark!Lockheed Martin are looking at establishing themselves big time in the Manawatu. They have big plans, some of which have already been discussed here, others are still not public but are being discussed with the Gov't. The RNZAF's historical contractors (in flying training and engineering) should be feeling very nervous about now...
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Mar 13, 2010 23:22:33 GMT 12
I think that having them based here for training would be a good idea that way in the future if the strike force was re-activated it would be easier to do so. I also think that this would allow our wider defence force to learn to operate with very diffrent people and systems thus making us a better defence force overall
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Post by phil on Mar 14, 2010 8:51:58 GMT 12
I think that having them based here for training would be a good idea that way in the future if the strike force was re-activated it would be easier to do so. I'm not sure how watching foreign aircraft take off and land from our airfield will help much, can you elaborate on your reasoning? If (and that's a pretty big if) the NZDF has anything at all to do with them. I doubt they will make themselves available for JTAC training for our benefit, perhaps they may train their own JTACs, but ours? Not so sure on that. The same goes for working with our Navy.
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Mar 14, 2010 13:23:57 GMT 12
OK well my idea here is that we Singapore and us are part of the alliance between the UK, NZ, AUS and Singapore.............. so why not do the training........ it would seem a waste to not get even more out of thid deal, we could use the misteral system to provide some SAM training for them.......... And i think that this deal would make it easier because we would have the infrastructure to do so the maintanence would be there and in place many of the things that are needed would already be there!
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Post by caromeg on Mar 14, 2010 13:46:37 GMT 12
Upon recruiting, all soldier under go R tests. The dumbest dont go to the infantry but the artillery. Mistral is almost parked up as the gunners are focusing on survival having major manning (and leadership) issues. With capabilities like GBAD and UAV they have a warm body appproach, hence their inevitable demise.
If it was all rosy, there are still limits as to what can be done with SAF both ways. They are also not typically an expeditionary defence force (yet) and there are 5 eyes limits on what can be done. They know that and so do we. JTAC training and the like might be a bit problematic. Having worked alot with them they will come over here with a prescribed course and there will be no fat/flexibility in their training. To their credit they are very risk adverse in other countires and careful with public perception.
As far as them controlling airspace, yes they could - at a pinch (1 F16 could do that!), for a short duration but aviation is 100% successful its never left anything up there. Pilots and planes need to eat. The strategic implications of Singapore doing that are completely unrealistic. What we should be more worried about is Lockheed Martin. Setting up in the manawatu doesn't mean that they are totally on board in supporting NZ industry. Using us as lackies yes, supporting NZ industry growth and innovation? - only if it suites them. They will only invest the bare minimum in infrastructure here in order to make a profit to support other global activities. They have to, there just isn't the growth potential here.
hawkeye out
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Post by phil on Mar 14, 2010 14:49:34 GMT 12
OK well my idea here is that we Singapore and us are part of the alliance between the UK, NZ, AUS and Singapore.............. so why not do the training........ it would seem a waste to not get even more out of thid deal, we could use the misteral system to provide some SAM training for them.......... And i think that this deal would make it easier because we would have the infrastructure to do so the maintanence would be there and in place many of the things that are needed would already be there! Having a guy on a hill top with Mistral wont be of any training benefit to the pilot, the only benefit would be the other way around, to the mistral operator. Again I can't see them using flying hours for that. I would be extremely surprised if we are providing any maintenance support to them at all, other than hangar space. I'll be surprised if we are even allowed in that hangar. I can't see it being their pilots flying and our maintainers maintaining. Apart from anything else we do not have the human resourced to man another Squadron, we will be stretched pretty thin as it is with the introduction to service of two new types over the next few years, while still operating the existing types at the same time. My best guess is all we will be supplying is real estate and probably dining facilities.
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Mar 16, 2010 1:20:18 GMT 12
To an extent you are right Phil but i still think that it woul dbe a shame if we were just left in the dust and i don't think that the RNZAF will get nothign out of the deal
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Post by oldnavy on Mar 16, 2010 1:36:26 GMT 12
kiwiscanfly, phil is right, not just to an extent. The RNZAF will get nothing because the commercial gain will go into general revenue. Other than payment, there is no other benefit in letting another's air force own all the military jets in your country.
Apologies for saying more when I said I wouldn't.
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Mar 16, 2010 1:42:11 GMT 12
point taken but i'd like to think that the RNZAF won't just roll over and play dead!
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Post by phil on Mar 16, 2010 14:04:53 GMT 12
point taken but i'd like to think that the RNZAF won't just roll over and play dead! The RNZAF is an instrument of the govt, here to support and govt policy. If a deal is struck, the RNZAF will do what it's told, it's not an issue of rolling over and playing dead, it's an issue of doing what the 'owners', for want of a better term, require.
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Mar 16, 2010 16:31:52 GMT 12
well thats low
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 16, 2010 17:41:48 GMT 12
kiwiscanfly, the reality is that this is how all Air Forces operate, and all other arms of the military. They are there simply to do the bidding of the Government and to cary out government policy. They have no real say at the end of the day in something like this, it's between two governments, not two Air Forces.
The same goes for purchasing equipment like helicopters, the RNZAF can make recommendations for the best type for their work but it is up to the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury to make the final decision. Hence the reason we had Skyhawks and not what the RNZAF actually wanted, Phantoms.
You'll begin to understand how it all works once you get in the mob.
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Post by yogi on Mar 16, 2010 19:43:46 GMT 12
kiwiscanfly - run in the next elections i'll vote for you go straight to the source, beats being a lobbyist.
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Post by phil on Mar 16, 2010 20:07:19 GMT 12
well thats low No, that's reality. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Post by caromeg on Mar 16, 2010 20:21:33 GMT 12
The alternative is that the military don't obey parliament and we have a banana republic. Seen enough of those to run a mile or 1000. If you know your history this is the best way to go - problem is - the rest of the world is not a constitutional monarchy with westminister democratic system (with all its good and bad points). Not a constitutional expert by any strech, but I think the only political power the military has is to dissolve parliament on the orders of the crown if parliament refuses to hold elections. One of those pillars of power things. Apart from that, it does what it's told.
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Post by Naki on Jul 9, 2010 13:39:32 GMT 12
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