Defence has faith in NH-90 program.

[corsair67]

I hope that they are right. The other thing they might like to consider though is that small customers don't always get looked after as well as large customers......

I was actually quite amazed how cramped the NH-90s were inside when I had a look inside on of the Army Aviation's MRH-90s last year; and I was only carrying a small back pack and camera.


From the TVNZ website:
tvnz.co.nz/national-news/nz-expects-new-choppers-modified-3391644




NZ expects new choppers will be modified
Published: 6:51AM Thursday March 04, 2010



The new NH-90 helicopters New Zealand is buying for the RNZAF are going to be versatile, with long flight ranges and capability to lift big loads, an official says.

The German Army - the biggest customer for a model similar to the eight New Zealand is buying for its own military - has pointed to many shortcomings in the aircraft and even recommended using alternative aircraft in operational scenarios.

NZ defence officials have received a translation of the summary of a leaked 103-page internal German military report which revealed several deficiencies in the NH-90, including:

Cabin seats capable of accommodating only soldiers who weigh less than 110kg with their gear.

Cannot carry heavier infantry weapons, such as the Stinger man-portable surface-to-air missile.

Clearance is so limited that soldiers have trouble getting in and out of the helicopter.

Rear ramp is too weak to support fully equipped soldiers.

Floor is so sensitive that it can be cracked by boots.

The helicopter's winch is not powerful enough for the fast-roping of commando teams.

But Ministry of Defence deputy secretary of acquisitions Des Ashton says that the New Zealand helicopters are still some time away from going into operational service, and there is room to have modifications and "work-arounds" done if necessary.

"We wouldn't anticipate having the same range of issues as the Germans," he says.

Some of the issues raised by the Germans are not a problem for the RNZAF. A different antenna will be used so that ground-clearance will be less important, but will still have to be "worked around" operationally.

The strength of the hinges on the door at the back of the helicopter is an issue, but he expects this is something the manufacturer could fix.

"If there are issues with floor-strength and things, they will have to be modified, such as through load-spreaders," Ashton says.

Because New Zealand is not the biggest customer for the helicopter, it is likely that earlier deliveries to bigger customers will lead to generic changes which will address the problems which have been raised.

New Zealand in 2006 ordered eight NH-90s for $771 million, including logistics support, spare parts and training, and is expected to start introducing them in a few months to replace the Vietnam War-era Bell UH-1Hs. These 14 ageing Iroquois helicopters arrived in New Zealand in 1966 and 1970 and have been deployed around many Pacific countries, Antarctica and other parts of the world.

Ashton says New Zealand has pilot and a crewman training on the helicopters in Europe, and two German pilots are in New Zealand flying Iroquois until the NH-90s arrive.

NZ training crews will be initially trained on three helicopters in France before the aircraft are shipped to New Zealand.

It is expected one aircraft will be deliver, in France next December, with six delivered next year, and the remainder in early 2012. One of these helicopters will be used for spares "as this is the least expensive way to buy spares", Ashton says.

Defence Minister Wayne Mapp says the NH-90 helicopters will be a cornerstone of the Defence Force's capability in the future.

[corsair67]

And the Australian Army appears to be singing from the same song sheet!




Aussie military defends new helicopters
19:15 AEST Tue Mar 2 20103 days


The Australian Defence Force says the new transport helicopters it is buying have excellent potential despite a German report outlining a range of defects.

A defence spokesman said Australia was seeking an English translation of the German Army trial report on its NH-90 helicopters.

He said all matters of operational effectiveness and airworthiness were taken seriously and the German report would be reviewed in detail.

"Australia is working with other nations and industry to address any issues arising as the NH-90 is introduced into service," he said.

"The aircraft, which has excellent potential, is relatively early in its developmental cycle. It is essential that any issues are identified and appropriately rectified so that the full combat potential of the aircraft can be realised."

Australia is acquiring 46 of these helicopters to replace Army Black Hawk and Iroquois helicopters and Navy Sea Kings through a deal worth $3.3 billion.

In Australian service, the NH-90 will be known as the MRH-90 for multi-role helicopter.

This is a European design, manufactured by NH Industries, a joint venture of Eurocopter, Agusta and Fokker. Of the Australian helicopters, four were manufactured in Europe with the rest to be assembled in Brisbane by Eurocopter subsidiary Australian Aerospace.

The German military is the largest single customer, buying 152.

But a 103-page internal military report, leaked to German daily newspaper Bild last week, pointed to many shortcomings and even recommended using alternative aircraft in operational scenarios.

The problems include limited clearance so that soldiers have trouble getting in and out, a rear ramp too weak to support fully equipped soldiers, seats unable to accommodate soldiers weighing more than 110 kilograms and limited interior space, which means there's no room for a door gunner.

[fletcherfu24]

In a nut shell we've bought another huge defence lemon and the people reponsible are trying to cover their asses.

[phil]

In a nutshell, any major acquisition, especially of a new piece of equipment, suffers teething problems that will be rectified, in this case I expect mostly by the manufacturer.

[fletcherfu24]

The problems include limited clearance so that soldiers have trouble getting in and out, a rear ramp too weak to support fully equipped soldiers, seats unable to accommodate soldiers weighing more than 110 kilograms and limited interior space, which means there's no room for a door gunner.

Just the sort of teething problems you would expect on a state of the art,high tech military helicopter.....

[corsair67]

The problem I see with this helicopter is that some of these issues aren't so much teething problems, but instead are actually major design issues.

I mean, who designs a troop carrying helicopter that doesn't have room for a door gunner when the helicopter is operating in its troop carrier fitout?

One of the Army Aviation crewmen I was speaking to in Townsville last year said that they were looking at some sort of foldout gun mount, but I don't know whether that is an NH-90 design, or a local Aussie mod for their MRH-90s.

[Kenny]

Apparently the leaked report outlines problems on some of the prototype versions.
Of course, that is the German Defence side of the story - of which TVNZ failed to include.

[beagle]

trying to find the report in the german paper, pretty tricky trying to get around a german web site, even though it is english then goes back to german when you think you have found what you are looking for...

[corsair67]

I think the Aussies are looking at Dillon Aero mounts for their guns.

Cheers, Phil.

Let's face it, no matter what, the NH-90 helicopter that the RNZAF is getting will be much more capable than what they are currently operating now, and I'm sure the RNZAF will learn to work around any know issues.

I'm guessing that the German Heer has ended up with the NH-90 for political reason, rather than getting what they actually wanted?

Obviously there will always be problems with prototype versions of any aircraft, and hopefully they are ironed out before the production versions are entering service: but my feeling is that not all of these issues are so easily solved by simple fixes on the production line.

[fletcherfu24]

How come New Zealand always get suckered into buying these lemons?,the worlds awash with suitable helicopters for the job.
Did we get a free set of steak knives for everyone we purchased?.

[phil]

Mar 6, 2010 19:21:49 GMT 12 @fletcherfu24 said:

How come New Zealand always get suckered into buying these lemons?,the worlds awash with suitable helicopters for the job.
Did we get a free set of steak knives for everyone we purchased?.

Are you purposefully trying to be a troll?

List another helicopter you think we should have purchased instead.

[beagle]

Since we have gone bigger than an iroquois, would an EH101 have been too big and has the RAF sorted out their tail rotor problems

[kiwiscanfly]

The NH90 is a good helo and as far as i can see the problems will be fixed and all will go well!! i mean people it has to be better than the Huey.

[phil82]

Mar 6, 2010 19:21:49 GMT 12 @fletcherfu24 said:

How come New Zealand always get suckered into buying these lemons?,.

On what basis would you justify that statement? You presumably have some non-lemons in mind that would have been a better buy, so what are they,and who else operates them?

The team that selected and recommended the NH90 included some very experienced RNZAF pilots, whom you are now saying didn't know what they were doing, so how do you arrive at the view they bought a lemon?

[corsair67]

The team that selected and recommended the NH90 included some very experienced RNZAF pilots, whom you are now saying didn't know what they were doing, so how do you arrive at the view they bought a lemon?

Some people who also knew what they were doing thought the Super Seasprite was the right helicopter for the RAN too, and look what a clusterf#ck that turned out to be! ;D

Let's face it, there are sales people who could sell dog turds to the hungry, and convince them they were buying sausages! ;D

[Dave Homewood]

Pool Guy (previously known as fletcherfu24) seems to have just deleted his account. What happened? Please send me an email Pool Guy if you read this. This is very sad, he was one of the greats of the forum, a most knowledgable and respected member.

[phil82]

Mar 7, 2010 16:46:05 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Pool Guy (previously known as fletcherfu24) seems to have just deleted his account. What happened? Please send me an email Pool Guy if you read this. This is very sad, he was one of the greats of the forum, a most knowledgable and respected member.

Knowlegeable? I'm picking that didn't include the NH890, which he described, as "a lemon" without any form of justification as to why that would be.

If, when asked on what basis he made that judgment, he spits the dummy rather than trying to answer, then that too doesn't fit in with the "most knowlegeable" comment.

When a major purchase such as a helicopter is to be made, it involves a long and detailed engineering and pilot assessment by a very experienced team. They don't simply look at glossy photos and decide, "oh, that one looks nice, let's buy it". To describe the results of all that work as "buying a lemon" doesn't show any knowledge at all in fact.

The old adage of "heat and kitchen" comes to mind.

[phil82]

Mar 7, 2010 16:44:36 GMT 12 corsair67 said:

The team that selected and recommended the NH90 included some very experienced RNZAF pilots, whom you are now saying didn't know what they were doing, so how do you arrive at the view they bought a lemon?

Some people who also knew what they were doing thought the Super Seasprite was the right helicopter for the RAN too, and look what a clusterf#ck that turned out to be! ;D

Let's face it, there are sales people who could sell dog turds to the hungry, and convince them they were buying sausages! ;D

Nothing wrong with the frame Mate, [ask the RNZN],it was the way they set about it's fit-out that turned the whole deal to custard.

[Dave Homewood]

Colin, Pool Guy is hugely knowledgable in his fields of aviation interest, especially when it comes to agricultural aviation. If you'd read but half a dozen of his many hundreds of posts you'd realise this. He's been a member here for years and has contributed a hell of a lot to the forum, helping out many, many people with information.

I think that one post where he expressed an opinion you don't agree with does not sum up his depth of knowledge, and with respect I think your reaction here has done him rather a disservice.

[phil82]

Mar 7, 2010 19:46:10 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Colin, Pool Guy is hugely knowledgable in his fields of aviation interest, especially when it comes to agricultural aviation. If you'd read but half a dozen of his many hundreds of posts you'd realise this. He's been a member here for years and has contributed a hell of a lot to the forum, helping out many, many people with information.

I think that one post where he expressed an opinion you don't agree with does not sum up his depth of knowledge, and with respect I think your reaction here has done him rather a disservice.

Utter bolleux Dave! Any disservice rended was to himself by making such il-informed comment, which incidentally flies in the face of any argument about knowledge of that topic.

I wouldn't know how to remove myself from this site, but feel free to do it for me!