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Post by madaero on Apr 26, 2010 13:15:59 GMT 12
i personally feel that all speculation in regards to how and why this happened should stop. I have a close relationship with 3 squadron and as far as how and why it happened,this will come out in due course with the professionals that are involved in carrying this job out,they are the experts not us. Condolences to all family and friends involved and at the end of the day, a tragedy none the less.R.I.P.
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Post by turboNZ on Apr 26, 2010 16:25:43 GMT 12
My thoughts go out to the families of those airman killed It is great that there is one survivor, sounds like he's going to make a full recovery. RIP Guys
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Post by obiwan27 on Apr 26, 2010 20:29:08 GMT 12
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Post by nige on Apr 26, 2010 23:04:48 GMT 12
Condolences to the families, friends and the Defence community.
Obiwan: thanks for the link to the Te Radar blog, I hadn't seen that before and his postings on the Sharing Sorrow with the Air Force and the Terrorists and ANZAC Day were thoughtful and rather well written.
Perhaps there is more to him than we realise. I recall in the early stages of what turned out to be the Ahmed Zaoui fiasco, when people were dumping on the NZ security/intelligence services, including even some pop musicians having benefit concerts for the guy ... Te Radar back then also said with similar clarity, words to the effect of "hang on a minute, while we don't really know if this guy is a threat or not, what if he is? Shouldn't we wait till we know the facts" before people ought to be jumping blindly on the free AZ bandwagon etc. He's obviously a thinker.
Anyway I shouldn't be expending energy on that, what matters the most is that pretty much a nation is mourning this tragic loss and people from nearly all walks of life hold the Air Force (and NZDF) in much high regard. The loss of these loved ones who dedicated their lives to serving their nation will always be remembered and will be in many people's thoughts for a long, long time.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 26, 2010 23:22:31 GMT 12
NZ3806 was just a few months shy of reaching 40 years service with the Royal New Zealand Air Force. This aircraft must have surely been involved in dozens if not hundreds of search and rescue operations itself over those four decades, as well as thousands of sorties of varying types that have aided people across NZ and the Pacific and saved lives, not to mention helped to defend New Zealand's security. '06 would have been flown in that time by perhaps hundreds of different pilots, and crewed by almost as many crewmen and crew-women. All of them put themselves at risk with every flight they make into the unknown; whether it's a windy mountain rescue, a dark bushclad hill search, a dash across the ocean to rescue an ill fisherman out at sea, maybe some police liaison work to attack the drug growers, or recover bodies of trampers or carry the Armed Offender units about, or a low fast insertion of troops during an exercise. I have known many of the Iroquois pilots and crewmen over the years and have always had the utmost respect for them and the courage they have to do what they do every day. These young men and women are the backbone of the modern day RNZAF. Losing one of them is tragic but three at once is catestrophic, not just to the RNZAF but to the nation.
I think perhaps one thing that comes from this sad accident happening on an ANZAC Day, and the sad death of the soldier on his motorcycle at Linton today, is the media and public have had what seems like an awakening of appreciation for our service personnel whom they so often perhaps take for granted in the news without so much as a second glance.
A lot of people have found this accident a devastating shock, especially coming so soon after the recent tragic losses of Nick Cree and Andrew Forster. I am ex-RNZAF and have been out a while now but I keep in touch with many in the service and so the RNZAF still seems like part of the family to me. But I cannot begin to imagine how this must feel to those still serving, especially those at Ohakea and those on No. 3 Squadron. My thoughts are with you all.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Apr 27, 2010 13:48:04 GMT 12
Dave,
Note you have referred to the aircraft as NZ3806 is that confirmed, and additionally can you confirm the serial of the airtrainer that crashed in January. have lost my notes on that one
cheers
Paul
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 27, 2010 15:07:37 GMT 12
Not sure, but one of the reports I saw one of the spokesmen (the CO I think) said '06. Also rumourman above posted the serial.
No idea on the CT/4E sorry.
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 27, 2010 16:11:24 GMT 12
As far as I know, the CT-4E was NZ 1990.
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Post by Peter Lewis on Apr 27, 2010 16:44:53 GMT 12
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Post by haughtney1 on Apr 28, 2010 2:15:17 GMT 12
I hope I'm proved wrong here, but a quick review of the images available online and the wx at the time of this accident makes me immediately think PLEASE DO NOT SPECULATE ABOUT THE CAUSE OF AIRCRAFT ACCIDENTS - SEE THE FORUM RULES
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Post by bazzaboeing on Apr 28, 2010 2:29:23 GMT 12
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orion
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 1
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Post by orion on Apr 28, 2010 7:31:14 GMT 12
I hope I'm proved wrong here, but a quick review of the images available online and the wx at the time of this accident makes me immediately think ..... We may as well just cancel the official investigation then, now that we have your informed comment... Idle speculation following any aircraft accident, while human nature, serves no useful purpose and in a small industry such as NZ's aviation industry, can severely and unfairly damage reputations. Once speculation is in the public domain, it cannot be controlled and we know how the media latches on to so-called "experts" comments and then portray them as gospel. Quite frankly, I'm extremely disappointed that anybody within the industry makes comments such as yours on public forums before the official investigation has been completed, particularly when they have so little information on which to base their comment. I would hope that all future speculation on this accident (and indeed all future accidents) is kept to one's self, rather than bursting into print on this or any other public forum.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Apr 28, 2010 9:03:12 GMT 12
The dominion post has issued a news statement claiming that the Iroqouis "NZ3809 known in 3 Squadron as 06 had crashed before." The article then goes on to describe the crash of NZ3809 at Kaipara on 9 July 1990 when it hid the ground during a lifting exercise. from my records the only misadventure during its service by NZ3806 was a precautionary landing at Tekapo in January 1973. so much for accurate reporting!!!
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Post by mumbles on Apr 28, 2010 9:22:22 GMT 12
I saw the same story and was confused as well. Wouldn't 3806 be known as '06? Or was the serial changed after its repair in 1990. Assuming it was 3806 that crashed, one also assumes 3809 is currently safely at Ohakea.
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Post by sqwark2k on Apr 28, 2010 9:33:29 GMT 12
Orion, you're gonna be disappointed forever with that expectation.... everyone's got an opinion and this is a public forum where opinions are likely to be expressed. I personally flew over the crash site twice yesterday, albeit from FL150 & 190 but I'm at a loss as to why they were or would want to be in the gulley they were....
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 28, 2010 9:40:12 GMT 12
S2K, as with every crash that has been reported on here I have attempted to stop idle speculation being posted here. I have removed the deduction from Haughtney's post, and to firm up previous statements about speculation being unwanted here on the forum I have made it a new forum rule that it is not welcome.
I know people all have their own opinions, but Orion (whoever he/she is) is totally correct that stating that opinion does no-one any good. There are a multitude of reasons behind any crash and the official investigators are the only people in the best position for deciding which of them was the actual cause.
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Post by mumbles on Apr 28, 2010 9:43:23 GMT 12
Orion, you're gonna be disappointed forever with that expectation.... everyone's got an opinion and this is a public forum where opinions are likely to be expressed. I personally flew over the crash site twice yesterday, albeit from FL150 & 190 but I'm at a loss as to why they were or would want to be in the gulley they were.... Yes its public, but the problem with that is anyone, informed or not, can read it and jump to conclusions: "A professional pilot who flew over the site yesterday said he was at a loss as to why the helicopter came to be where it was"Boom, instant headline to lead a story in a particular direction. I fully support the "no speculation" directive, especially when the professional reputations of those unable to speak for themselves are at stake.
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Post by camtech on Apr 28, 2010 11:02:28 GMT 12
Dave, I totally support your actions. I can clearly recall the rumours that flew around Auckland when NZ3810 crashed - almost all proved unfounded when the official report appeared. Lets wait until the official sources release some information - often a preliminary comment - but the investigators have access to a lot more information than can be seen merely from where the aircraft lies.
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Post by caromeg on Apr 28, 2010 11:10:42 GMT 12
This thread troubles me.
On one hand I do agree about letting the air accident investigators doing their job. Its a no brainer and a default setting for me (incedentally I feel very sorry for them as they havn't finished Nick's FSE yet). I can see the personal side and how deep this cuts being on ANZAC day as well.
But, I also think we are being a bit precious. Aviation (let alone military aviation) is dangerous. My Great Uncle flew Sunderlands for RNZAF and ended up 747's for ANZ and he warned me before taking up flying that you will loose people and friends - a fact of life in aviation. he was right, ror 20 yrs now I have been loosing friends in Aviation, Military Operations and life in general (we all have). It hurts but you have to move on (for their sake as well as yours).
I dont think Haughtney's comment was that innapropriate - <<< MODERATED - SPECULATION AGAIN!!! PLEASE DON'T!!>>> As to what caused that is another matter and who on earth can speculate on that! Anyone in aviation knows the swiss cheese safety model where acidents dont just happen but are due to a number of defences failing and thing lining up for a whole heap of bad.
If it was me I wouldn't want anything supressed in any public forum. I apprecaite there will be nutters that goof off, but when has that not been the case? and ....it will never stop. Supressing insults our intelligence and dumbs us down in the long run. The truth always pops up in the end and those that behave poorly get their just deserts in the long run.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 28, 2010 11:56:47 GMT 12
Yes the truth pops up in the end, and in the meantime there WILL BE NO SPECULATION POSTED HERE as to what you think it might have been.
This policy is longstanding and it is NOT in place to "insult your intellignece" or to "dumb down" the discussion. It is about respect; for those who have died, for their families and friends, and for those who have the onerous task of piecing together the facts.
This policy is not meant as anything personal against those who have made speculative statements. You might be right or wrong but please keep your comments off the forum until after the report comes out.
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