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Post by Bruce on Apr 28, 2010 11:58:18 GMT 12
I agree with Dave, although this is a public forum, there are certain things that dont belong on it - If you have theories regarding the cause of an accident, the appropriate places to raise these are TAIC or the MOD investigators, they can then make appropriate analysis and publish the results accordingly. Idle speculation from a distance achieves nothing
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Post by haughtney1 on Apr 28, 2010 12:25:06 GMT 12
Sorry guys, it was certainly not my intention to cause any offense, and I have to say I was ignorant of the no speculation rule. That said, I have already had a pretty in depth chat to someone who has been involved in this from an initial stand point, and I'm bound to say.... their line of inquiry has a major emphasis in the area of "speculation" that I posted. Please also understand that whilst it may appear to some that I am potentially distant from this incident...it has infact had a serious impact on someone who I have known and considered a good friend for the last 20 years. Apologies once again for any breach or offense caused, certainly not my intention.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Apr 28, 2010 12:31:56 GMT 12
The dominion post has issued a news statement claiming that the Iroqouis "NZ3809 known in 3 Squadron as 06 had crashed before." The article then goes on to describe the crash of NZ3809 at Kaipara on 9 July 1990 when it hid the ground during a lifting exercise. from my records the only misadventure during its service by NZ3806 was a precautionary landing at Tekapo in January 1973. so much for accurate reporting!!! The same extremely poorly researched article is in the Chch Press this morning. I just shook my head when I read it. Do these guys actually get paid to produce this rubbish?!
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Post by mumbles on Apr 28, 2010 13:47:27 GMT 12
The dominion post has issued a news statement claiming that the Iroqouis "NZ3809 known in 3 Squadron as 06 had crashed before." The article then goes on to describe the crash of NZ3809 at Kaipara on 9 July 1990 when it hid the ground during a lifting exercise. from my records the only misadventure during its service by NZ3806 was a precautionary landing at Tekapo in January 1973. so much for accurate reporting!!! The same extremely poorly researched article is in the Chch Press this morning. I just shook my head when I read it. Do these guys actually get paid to produce this rubbish?! Must have been a hell of a crash if it changed the serial number. I have emailed Stuff.co.nz about it (not that I expect any action or reply), and commented about the inaccuracy/completely wrong-ness on the Dom-Post's on-line version of the same story this morning, a comment that amazingly enough has not been published yet.
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Post by lumpy on Apr 28, 2010 13:55:43 GMT 12
I personally dont have a problem with people expressing their opinions - so long as its clear thats what it is . The problem occours ( in my opinion ) , when these opinions can be seen as speculation ( and its a very grey area ) because , if someone speculates as to" what "caused an accident , then they are also speculating ( by default ) as to " who" caused the accident .Clearly fingure pointing is simply not appropriate , not even indirectly .
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 28, 2010 15:49:53 GMT 12
While I agree with, and fully support, Dave's stance on not allowing speculation into what happen in accidents on WoNZ, I have to say that sadly, we're fighting a losing battle.
All you have to do is read the daily papers to see the amount of speculation on all manner of topics, and much of it is from people you wouldn't trust as far as you could kick them.
Already there has been speculation from several commercial pilots in articles in 'stuff.co.nz' as to what may, or may not, have happened on ANZAC Day at Pukerua Bay. One of the pilots even goes into detail about what he thinks the accident investigation will be looking into!
I think the main thing is to remember that three NZ servicemen died in this terrible accident, and that some of their family, friends and colleagues may read what you post on a public forum.
If only for the sake of the victims' families, friends and colleagues, then I think the no speculation rule is worth it.
The facts of what happened at around 6am ANZAC morning will come out eventually, but by then the wounds won't be quite so fresh.
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Post by Peter Lewis on Apr 28, 2010 20:53:21 GMT 12
I agree that speculation is pretty pointless, and can be upsetting to those directly involved. A further risk is that anyone who has ever laid hands on a Cessna can be seen by the media as 'an aviation expert' and widely quoted.
However, the urge to gossip and speculate is a human characteristic that has been around for thousands of years and is not going to go away any time soon. The only good part of this is that like the Airtrainer crash the media will rapidly lose interest, move on to the next great thing, and leave the experts to do their job.
A related issue (which I was going to raise in a new thread before this accident) is the time taken to carry out aviation accident investigations. I do not know how quickly the military move in this area, but civil aviation investigations seem to take an inordinate amount of time.
As we all know, the causes of a fatal aircraft accident can be varied, ranging from human error to problems with the aircraft itself. In some cases, deficiencies in the aircraft structure have been shown to be the cause, and these deficiencies can either be unique to that particular aircraft or can be generic to the design or construction of that particular type.
To me, if it is found to be a generic fault, then the sooner we identify the problem and its solution the better. Lives can be at risk until this action is taken.
I have a particular interest in this, as it is now fully two years since my friend Wayne Matthews and his passenger were killed in the crash of his Thorp while in the circuit at Whenuapai on the 26th April 2008. After all this time there has as yet apparently been no official findings of the cause of this accident.
I have my own theory as to the cause of this event which I have discussed with other people (but will not go into here) and if I am correct there could have been a structural deficiency in the aircraft that may well be present in other aircraft of this type. In the meantime, other people are flying these aircraft and possibly endangering themselves and their passengers.
Certainly these investigations take time. I understand that. Six months, possibly even a year. But time drags on and (like the metal fatigue investigations in Neville Shute's novel No Highway) it would seen that the technical work becomes an end unto itself, with little connection with the demands of the real world. In the meantime family and friends are left wondering and just possibly other aviators are put at unnecessary risk.
Perhaps if anyone here is or has been involved in air accident investigation work they may care to comment further.
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 28, 2010 21:54:42 GMT 12
Peter, I think it was mentioned in an article on 'stuff.co.nz' that it could take up to six months for the accident investigation findings to be released for this particular accident.
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Post by lesterpk on Apr 28, 2010 21:57:22 GMT 12
I was quite intimately involved with the aftermath of a fatal accident about a decade ago now. We got a briefing from the investigators after about a week, and while they didnt tell us what they thought happened, they did tell us the scenarios they had excluded which left only one option without actually saying so. In the end it wasnt quite so simple and a lot more factors came into play with what appeared at first look to be simple pilot error and CFIT. All is not always what it seems and every avenue is followed up very thoroughly as the pieces in an investigation are complex and wide ranging to recreate the sequence of events and causal factors. All will no doubt be revealed in the course of time.
Tomorrow we have to lay our brothers to rest, that and the families and loved ones are the most important thing right now.
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Post by Damon on Apr 28, 2010 22:06:12 GMT 12
We stand beside you too , lesterpk
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 28, 2010 22:41:42 GMT 12
I'm amazed to read that it has been two years already since the Whenuapai crash, Peter, and saddened that no findings have yet been released.
Well put Les. Kia Kaha.
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Post by mumbles on Apr 28, 2010 23:41:02 GMT 12
Agreed, well put Les, and all the best to any other members of the Service 'family' involved in tomorrow's proceedings.
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Post by Kereru on Apr 29, 2010 8:44:54 GMT 12
A feeling of stunned disbelief initially for me when I first heard of the crash and of all days on Anzac day. My sympathy to all the family and friends of those that lost their lives doing their duties. R.I.P.
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Post by sqwark2k on Apr 29, 2010 15:55:14 GMT 12
Crew flown to Funeral by colleagues....
Three Iroquois helicopters carrying the bodies of three air force crewmen who died in the Anzac Day air crash will land outside the main hangar at the force's Ohakea base today ahead of their funeral.
On board the three helicopters from No 3 Squadron will be the bodies of Flying Officer Daniel Stephen Gregory, 28, Flight Lieutenant Hayden Peter Madsen, 33, and Corporal Benjamin Andrew Carson, 25, who were killed when their Iroquois hit a hill in foggy weather at Pukerua Bay.
They will be farewelled in a full military funeral which is expected to bring the air base to a stop for nearly three hours this afternoon.
The only survivor of the crash, Sergeant Stevin Iain Creeggan, who was seriously hurt in the crash, remains in hospital.
On Sunday, the men's helicopter left Ohakea in formation with two other Iroquoi, headed for Wellington for a flypast at the Anzac Day Dawn Service.
One machine landed at Wellington, one landed at Paraparaumu but the third crashed, just before 6am. CCID: 33013
Today the air force said the funeral would include an honour guard and a firing party. VIP guests would include Prime Minister John Key, who cut short an overseas trip to be at the funeral, and Governor General Sir Anand Satyanand.
Air force spokesman Squadron Leader Kavae Tamariki said the men's caskets would be marched about 800 metres from the main hangar to the No 3 Squadron hangar.
"As that happens there will be a 100-man guard of honour and a firing party firing three volleys."
He said the route between the two hangars would also be lined with air force personnel as the three hearses drove slowly with pall bearers marching alongside.
After the caskets reached the No 3 Squadron hangar they would be taken by the families for private burials.
"We anticipate anything between 1300 and 1500 people."
Yesterday a Hercules aircraft flew from the air force's Whenuapai air base in Auckland taking mourners to the funeral at Ohakea and a further two flights today would bring more mourners into town.
Many of the mourners were being put up at the Ohakea air base but many were also accommodated at the nearby Linton army base.
The funerals are not open to the public or media at the request of the families.
- NZPA
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rhyno
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 90
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Post by rhyno on Apr 30, 2010 23:28:18 GMT 12
RIP Mads gonna miss you my Friend.
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