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Post by davidd on Jun 9, 2017 11:07:26 GMT 12
Dave H,
There was a third Ayson in the RNZAF (in aircrew) and there might well have been others in ground staff. This third (aircrew) Ayson was NZ432172 (number needs confirmation) Peter Douglas Giffen Ayson, who embarked for Canada on 11th Feb 1944 as a WOAG under training, graduated 3/11/44 as Sgt, returned to NZ 24/1/45, after being posted around various pools to little consequence he was posted to a course at No. 1 OTU (Ohakea)16/6/45, but this happened to coincide with the changeover of this OTU from Venturas to Dakotas. Shortly after this, the war ended, so he never became "operational" despite his enlistment as early as February 1943.
David D
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Post by errolmartyn on Jun 9, 2017 13:30:47 GMT 12
Dave H, There was a third Ayson in the RNZAF (in aircrew) and there might well have been others in ground staff. This third (aircrew) Ayson was NZ432172 (number needs confirmation) Peter Douglas Giffen Ayson, who embarked for Canada on 11th Feb 1944 as a WOAG under training, graduated 3/11/44 as Sgt, returned to NZ 24/1/45, after being posted around various pools to little consequence he was posted to a course at No. 1 OTU (Ohakea)16/6/45, but this happened to coincide with the changeover of this OTU from Venturas to Dakotas. Shortly after this, the war ended, so he never became "operational" despite his enlistment as early as February 1943. David D Number is confirmed. The only other Aysons in the WWII RNZAF were: NZ401522 Fergus Hall Ayson, enlisted as flight mechanic NZ4211084 Leslie Hugh Francis Ayson, enlisted as an ACH (ADU) NZ4210397 William Lake Ayson, enlisted as driver (petrol) mechanic Errol |
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janfd
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by janfd on Jun 12, 2017 20:43:37 GMT 12
Was so hoping somebody could identify the men in the photographs who have no names. I have noticed that there are two 'Colin Clayton' names which surely cannot be correct - does anybody recognise these men?
I know that Alister Bain Pinching (NZ 421092) was an LAC at Wigram as well as Christopher Martin Wilson (NZ 421128) and wonder whether they are two of the unidentified in the photos?
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Post by errolmartyn on Jun 12, 2017 21:00:58 GMT 12
Was so hoping somebody could identify the men in the photographs who have no names. I have noticed that there are two 'Colin Clayton' names which surely cannot be correct - does anybody recognise these men? I know that Alister Bain Pinching (NZ 421092) was an LAC at Wigram as well as Christopher Martin Wilson (NZ 421128) and wonder whether they are two of the unidentified in the photos? No Colin Clayton in the WWII RNZAF that I am aware of but there was a NZ421021 Colin Clay don who enlisted at Levin as an Airman Pilot u/t on 8 Feb 42. Errol |
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janfd
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by janfd on Jun 14, 2017 12:54:19 GMT 12
Thanks so much for spelling correction and extra information Errol - makes quite a difference and now I just need to work out which one he is!
Think I need to get to library - so much more to research.
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Post by pjw4118 on Jun 22, 2017 8:40:57 GMT 12
Can anybody identify the tall chap in the centre. Taken 4EFTS Whenuapai early 1941. Arthur Osborne P/UT is second from left.  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 22, 2017 9:56:15 GMT 12
I'm pretty sure that is one of the Firth brothers I think, either F/Lt Edward Buckland "Ted" Firth or F/Lt Guy "Tony" Firth. They looked almost identical so it's hard to be sure which. Both instructed, but I think Tony was at 4RFTS. Does his name appear in Osborne's logbook?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 22, 2017 9:57:37 GMT 12
Odd to note that the aircraft behind them is a DH60 Moth. I thought No. 4EFTS only flew DH82a Tiger Moths.
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Post by davidd on Jun 22, 2017 14:30:24 GMT 12
I am pretty certain you are on the money with your guess of one of the Firth brothers (of Firth Concrete fame, Edward Buckland born 1905, Guy Mortimer 1907), but I have no doubt that the aircraft at rear is a Tiger, and not a DH 60 Moth. From frontal view (tail up or down) the DH 60 has straight wings of equal dihedral. Tiger has swept back wings, but when tail down (as in photo) upper wings appears to have no dihedral (due to sweep back apparently cancelling it out) while lower wings have noticeable dihedral (due to shorter interplane struts). Tail up, the Tiger has moderate dihedral on upper wings, more extreme on lower wings (2 degrees, 45 Minutes, versus 4 degrees 30 minutes). Cannot locate figures for the DH 60, but probably similar to upper wing of Tiger.
Both the Firth brothers served at Whenuapai as flying instructors, Ted as a Flight Commander between December 1940 (when 4 EFTS was formed) and March 1942 (when 4 EFTS was disbanded, with instructors, pupils and aircraft being shared between remaining three schools). Guy was at Whenuapai alongside his brother from January 1941 till March 1942, and was also appointed as a flight commander from July 1941 onwards. So probably impossible to identify the particular brother in photo, unless you knew them REALLY well.
Dave D
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Post by pjw4118 on Jun 22, 2017 14:58:22 GMT 12
Good thought Dave ,
his logbook shows Cadman as his instructor right through and always on DH82 . His 40 hour test was carried out by F/L EB Firth who signed it off as OC B flight . S/L John Seabrook completed the page as O/C and S/L Lester as CFI . Perhaps these people are also in the picture .
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 22, 2017 18:53:57 GMT 12
I'm happy to stand corrected on the Gipsy Moth versus Tiger Moth issue. I'd not considered the angle of the tail counteracting against the angle of the wings. You could confirm if that is Ted or Tony Firth by emailing it to Sally Coles, who is he daughter of, um, either Ted or Tony - I forget which. If anyone can confirm who it is, it'll be her. She should be able to be reached at jsacoles@ihug.co.nz I'm not sure if it helps but this is John Seabrook in his younger days in WWI:  and  And this is him as a Group Captain in 1945. I do not think he is in that group photo.  I have not managed to find a shot of Alfred Louis "Lou" Cadman, however. |
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Post by pjw4118 on Jun 24, 2017 9:38:39 GMT 12
Thats great thanks
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 30, 2017 23:42:12 GMT 12
This photo come from the EVENING POST, 26 JUNE 1939.  "Air Force pilots who have completed their period of training at the Royal New Zealand Air Force Flying Training School, Wigram, and who were passed out at an inspection held last Thursday by Group-Captain H. W. L. Saunders. Most of them will leave for England shortly for service with the Royal Air Force. From the left, Acting Pilot Officers J. E. Hull, T. F. Gill, W. I. Anstey, A. E. Wickham, V. A. Cunningham, R. M. Stewart, R. W. Roots, W. A. Foster, B. W. Peryman, A. K. Round, W. Smillie, G.M. Allcock. J.F.Gavin, D.L. Prichard, V. B. de la Perrelle, J. C. F. Hayter, H. L. Oakley, and D. W. S.Clark." |
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Post by angelsonefive on Jul 1, 2017 8:17:26 GMT 12
Eighth from the right is Acting P/O W. Smillie. Presumably this young man is the same W. Smillie who was at the controls of DH Moth ZK-ABV when it stalled and crashed on the Miramar Golf Club grounds moments after taking off from Rongatai AD on the evening of 3 December, 1937. I hope William Smillie's Air Force service went well and compensated in some small way for the death of his fellow civil air reservist and Manawatu Aero Club member R.L. Elliot (20) who was in the the front seat of the plane and did not survive his injuries. A Board of Inquiry found William guilty of " culpable carelessness and neglect " and fined him 10 Pounds and ordered him to pay a further 10 Pounds towards the Board's expenses. Witness expenses for attending the Inquiry were disallowed and his A Licence was suspended for 3 months, as well. paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19371204.2.74 |
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Post by errolmartyn on Jul 1, 2017 13:06:10 GMT 12
Eighth from the right is Acting P/O W. Smillie. Presumably this young man is the same W. Smillie who was at the controls of DH Moth ZK-ABV when it stalled and crashed on the Miramar Golf Club grounds moments after taking off from Rongatai AD on the evening of 3 December, 1937. I hope William Smillie's Air Force service went well and compensated in some small way for the death of his fellow civil air reservist and Manawatu Aero Club member R.L. Elliot (20) who was in the the front seat of the plane and did not survive his injuries. A Board of Inquiry found William guilty of " culpable carelessness and neglect " and fined him 10 Pounds and ordered him to pay a further 10 Pounds towards the Board's expenses. Witness expenses for attending the Inquiry were disallowed and his A Licence was suspended for 3 months, as well. paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19371204.2.74As chance would have it, Bill Smillie's accident of 3 December 1937 features in Part 4 of my 'Toll of the Air' series appearing in the recently published June issue of the AHSNZ's quarterly journal, The Aero Historian. I see now that I have mistakenly dated the event there as Friday 2 December instead of Friday 3 December 1937. Meanwhile, here is a copy of the accompanying bio details about Bill Smillie: William (‘Bill’) SMILLIE, aged 19 Smillie, a clerk at the time, was the youngest of three brothers who were all pilot members of the Middle Districts Aero Club. David and John Smillie had gained their ‘A’ Licences (524 & 700) through the club in 1933 and 1934, respectively, and Bill his (1203) on 1 October 1937. (By 1936 there was even a Smillie Brothers Cup!). At the time of the accident he had flown about 80-100 hours and was also a member of the RNZAF’s recently-formed Civil Reserve of Pilots. His brother David had joined Union Airways Ltd (UAL) in November 1935, and following in his footsteps Bill also joined the company, on 19 August 1938. Three months later, on 29 November, he was appointed to a commission as an acting pilot officer in the RNZAF and posted to Wigram for advanced flying training. On 25 June the following year he was posted to the RNZAF’s Reserve (later, still on the Reserve, on 10 June 1940, he was promoted to pilot officer), presumably having returned to UAL. Sadly, as is recounted later in this series, on 7 May 1942, as co-pilot, he was killed along with the four other occupants of UAL’s Electra ZK-AFE Kereru when it flew into the side of Mt Richmond whilst engaged on a flight from Wellington to Nelson. The Smillie boys’ father, David F. Smillie, was a Palmerston North councillor and instrumental in the acquisition of the land for Milson aerodrome which later became Palmerston North Airport. He was also a life member of the club. The Smillie family has been continuously involved in the aviation industry from the early 1930s to the present day. Errol |
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Post by davidd on Jul 1, 2017 14:12:58 GMT 12
Just a small point, but the CAS at the time of this photo was of course Group Captain H W L Saunders, rather than Sounders.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 1, 2017 14:16:47 GMT 12
Thanks David, that was one of Papers Past's text-translation errors that I missed picking up on.
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Post by davidd on Jul 1, 2017 16:06:03 GMT 12
This photo shows No. 6 Course at Wigram (20 Acting Pilot Officers) which reported from their elementary training with the aero clubs on 29/11/38, and graduated on 22/6/39. One further pupil was A/P/O T F Gill, probably the best known to the masses as he later became an MP and subsequently a Minister of Defence, who started off as a refugee from No. 2 Course of April 1938. One of the other pupils (R J McCrorie) was killed in a Vildebeest crash at Wigram on 11/5/39, during night flying. Of the remainder, Brooks, Hall-Jones, Smillie, and Stewart were retained in New Zealand, rest were shipped off to the RAF. Brooks relinquished his commission in NZ on 31/3/40, while Stewart transferred to the Reserve on 1/7/39. Hall-Jones had sickness problems but finally qualified and departed for UK over a year later, on 14/9/40. As noted by Errol Martyn above, Smillie was killed in the Union Airways Electra crash at Mt Richmond 7/5/42. Of those sent to the UK, Cunningham, Roots, and Wickham lost their lives on war operations, while Foster, Hall-Jones, Hull, Round lost theirs in flying accidents. De la Perrelle became a PoW of the Japanese from March 1942, but survived. So the casualty rate was quite heavy, but not as heavy as some later courses, a few of which reached 50% or more. I have cross-checked initials of these men, etc, - all correct, so well done Dave H, and Papers Past!
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 1, 2017 19:43:27 GMT 12
This one from the PRESS newspaper, dated 21 November 1939   Some names I recognise there, most were destined for the RAF and were being trained initially by the RNZAF before heading there. When war began some of them were retained here: - Charlie Pownell became a No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Wellington pilot. He flew in the crew of AA-Y for Yorker, the Wellington marked with the soda siphon spraying bombs along with Jack Wakefield who's still with us. Edward Colin Joseph Cameron also became a No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Wellington pilot. He was killed in action on the 20th of July 1940. I think that will be David Veale Gilmour, who also became a No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Wellington pilot. John Edward Stewart Morton, Arthur George Lee Humphreys, Eric Vernon Best, Frank Henderson Denton, also all became No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Wellington pilots. Graham Noel Parker became a No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Wellington pilot and was killed 16th of October 1942 Duncan Harold McArthur became a No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Wellington pilot. He was killed 4th of May 1942. John Arkwright was retained by the RNZAF and became an instructor and then a P-40 pilot seeing action with 15, 16 and 17 Squadrons, before becoming boss of the NZ Fighter Wing and several US squadrons. Guy Newton was also retained and also became an instructor and then a P-40 pilot, becoming an ace. Both survived the war and are still alive I believe. Desmond Rolph-Smith flew Liberators with Squadron X's "Special Liberator Flight" in the Med. I am wondering if that is Robert Maxwell "Bob" McKay who flew No.75 Squadron RNZAF Mosquitoes and the Meteor postwar? And is that George Robert Brabyn who also flew Mossies with No.75 Squadron RNZAF? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 1, 2017 22:51:11 GMT 12
From the NZ Herald, 5 December 1939. Any ideas who these 17 officers were? Was this War Course 1?   |
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