Chinooks - not ... or why not?

[nige]

As the helicopter has been of tremendous value to the military over many decades, I've often wondered whether the NZDF should have a better/wider range of helo capabilities (eg like our cousins across the ditch).

1. Would the Chinook have a role in the NZDF?

www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/ch47d/
www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/ch47d/docs/CH-47F_overview.pdf

2. Can NZ afford to buy them?

From this item, the cost to Australia to purchase 7 F-models was US $560 million in 2009. That's roughly $750 million NZ dollars today. (And NZ bought 8+1 NH90's for about the same cost).

www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2009/Australia_09-17.pdf

3. Can NZ afford to run them?

I don't know the hourly operating costs - does anyone?

4. What use would they be for NZ?

Here's some obvious suggestions - it can carry twice the load (weight wise) of the NH90 and about 50% more troops, the can operate from HMNZS Canterbury (to allow deployment into Asia/Pacific etc), useful for SAS support on operations, etc.

I'd suggest if viable, NZ wouldn't need 7 (like Oz) but say 4 (possibly max 5), to allow a deployment of 2 (possibly 3) overseas, with the other 2 or so in NZ (or Aust) in maintenance etc.

NZ wouldn't need to ensure the numbers for NZ operations (when 2 or so are deployed overseas) as NZ ops (eg SAR, counter terrorism) would be handled by the NH90's and A109LUH's.

Does NZ need to supplement its light and medium lift helo fleet with a heavy lift type? Be that Chinook (or another type).

It's interesting also that some some civilian companies use ex-RAF Wessex's in NZ (perhaps the RNZAF should have also got the Wessex back in the 60's as an alternative to the Chinook etc)?

[Dave Homewood]

I would think they'll be a shitload cheaper now Nige as the exchange rate since then has gone from 50c to the US$1.00 to 80c to US$1.00

That is still a lot of money. You could buy at least 300 Spitfires for that amount.

[Bruce]

The Chinook is certainly a valuable piece of kit. I'd say 4 or 5 for NZ would be reasonable - the British fought the entire Falklands war with only one! They are really useful for heavy lift jobs such as moving Artillery into position etc.

[Calum]

The Chook is probably the best medium-heavy helciopter in the world. Particularly in the hot and high environments where they are being used today.

they are the battlefield air lifter of choice in Afghanistan

But they are extremely expensive to operate (like all helicopters). I'm not convinced that they would have any real role in NZ, short of being deployable, like the AAVN ones, as part of a coalition force.

NZ needs to build it's medium and light helciopter force first. 8 and 5 frames respectively aren't enough.

Personally I think the ADF would better off investing in more Chinooks and less JSF's

[luke6745]

Oct 8, 2010 22:04:41 GMT 12 Calum said:

NZ needs to build it's medium and light helciopter force first. 8 and 5 frames respectively aren't enough.

So we could assume that the Air Force will keep on some Hueys until we purchase some more A109s/NH90s

[Dave Homewood]

Luke, it is likely, yes

[Calum]

Really Dave? I hadn't heard that.

[nige]

Any room in the new hangar for the Hueys (and visiting Seasprites etc ) or would they remain where they are now (as the new helicopters come online)?

Maybe 3Sqn hangar needs "carport" extension (like on Aussie airfields) to house the visitors (including, presumably, more ADF helos regularly on excercise courtesy of their C17's)!

[luke6745]

Warehouse marquee?

[oggie2620]

Dont forget how long it took to get our new chooks in service because of the updates...

[corokid66]

Oct 9, 2010 17:16:15 GMT 12 phil said:

I think you will find the RNZAF will keep the Hueys until the all the roles are fully operational with the NH90, which will be quite some time down the track from when they are delivered.

The length of time the Iroquois will be in service has more to do with maintaining the required roles (ie SAR, CT etc), rather than 'until we buy more NH90s'.

With this being the case and it being a given that we have a shortage of deployable rotary assets, I wonder if their is any merit in us down the track introducing 6-8 Bell 412-EP's which will continue the Huey role as well as being a good useful workhorse in a South Pacific op like RAMSI or a case where a heli is tied up for months. Murphy's law tells me that it could be likely that we might have a few deployed NH-90's away and have a bit of a to-do spark up in the Pacific. Local rebellion or disaster ect.

Cost-wise I would rather a cheap and cheerful utility helicopter like the 412-EP doing its business in such affairs as supporting a small scale Pacific contingency than an expensive to buy and operate NH-90. The going rate for a militarised 412-EP is about NZD$16m which means picking up another six would cost about the same as 1.5 extra NH-90's or a sliver under 100m.

[ErrolC]

How useful would the Aussie Seasprites be in upping the number of deplorable airframes?

[nige]

The (former) Aussie Seasprites have a much different avionics setup to the NZ ones (and apparently that's where the issues arose, around certification and safety etc).

Although, if I understand this press release from Kaman Aerospace dated Feb 2009, they are suggesting the issues have been fixed?

www.kamanaero.com/images/PDFs/02-22-09%20SH-2G(I)%20PR,%20KD-FINAL.pdf

But the former Aussie Seasprites are optimised for surface (and ASW?) warfare (thus expensive due to fitout). Nice for the RNZN possibly but for Army/Air Force deployments something cheaper (eg as alluded to by CoroKid or simply more A109's or refurbished Hueys would probably be sufficient).

[Calum]

the issues have been fixed if you don't have a airworthiness system like the ADF/NZDF fo

[conman]

Might be worth holding off on more A109's and going with a small order (5 or 6) for the recently announced AW169 which is a big brother to the A109 with an ability to carry 8/10 pax/2 stretchers, would fit nicely as a versatile lower cost alternative to the NH90 but from the same stable, alternatively the AW149 would give you a nice capability but at a higher cost.

www.agustawestland.com/product/aw169

[nige]

Oct 12, 2010 17:23:39 GMT 12 Calum said:

the issues have been fixed if you don't have a airworthiness system like the ADF/NZDF fo

In other words, don't expect Kaman to be able to offload those ex-Oz Seasprites onto NZ (let alone Australia) anytime soon ;D

In terms of them being the "...battlefield air lifter of choice in Afghanistan" and "...I'm not convinced that they would have any real role in NZ, short of being deployable, like the AAVN ones, as part of a coalition force".

But wouldn't that be the point of NZ operating them? i.e.
- NZ Army support on major deployment?
- NZ will continue to operate at high tempo with allied/friendly/coalition/UN forces into the forseable future (due to instability, disputes and conflict surrounding ideology, resources, environment etc)?

Just thinking how handy they could be for a (near) future NZDF deployment in Afghanistan (or the next trouble spot where NZ needs to be interoperable with other bigger nations, supplying alot of logistic support etc) i.e.
- NZ NH90's carrying the troops.
- Backed up by NZ Chinooks carrying the ammo, heavy MG, ATM's, modular command and control & other systems etc, maybe even a 105mm light gun etc.
- SAS operation support.
- Joint ADF/NZDF support (sharing the 2 nations Chooks depending on availability etc).

Meanwhile back in NZ when undertaking "peaceful" support e.g.
- DOC resupply to off-shore islands.
- Civil Defence disaster assistance (heaps of tents, medical supplies, water, food etc.
- RNZAF Maritime SAR/mercy dash missions etc.

I do agree NZ needs more of the A109's, ideally some more NH90's but because of their costs anyway, could NZ instead keep the NH90's (at 8) and supplement them with 4 Chinooks instead? Would "add value" to the NZDF & give the Govt "more options" (to use catch phrases etc).

[corokid66]

Oct 12, 2010 22:00:55 GMT 12 nige said:

Oct 12, 2010 17:23:39 GMT 12 Calum said:

the issues have been fixed if you don't have a airworthiness system like the ADF/NZDF fo

In other words, don't expect Kaman to be able to offload those ex-Oz Seasprites onto NZ (let alone Australia) anytime soon ;D

In terms of them being the "...battlefield air lifter of choice in Afghanistan" and "...I'm not convinced that they would have any real role in NZ, short of being deployable, like the AAVN ones, as part of a coalition force".

But wouldn't that be the point of NZ operating them? i.e.
- NZ Army support on major deployment?
- NZ will continue to operate at high tempo with allied/friendly/coalition/UN forces into the forseable future (due to instability, disputes and conflict surrounding ideology, resources, environment etc)?

Just thinking how handy they could be for a (near) future NZDF deployment in Afghanistan (or the next trouble spot where NZ needs to be interoperable with other bigger nations, supplying alot of logistic support etc) i.e.
- NZ NH90's carrying the troops.
- Backed up by NZ Chinooks carrying the ammo, heavy MG, ATM's, modular command and control & other systems etc, maybe even a 105mm light gun etc.
- SAS operation support.
- Joint ADF/NZDF support (sharing the 2 nations Chooks depending on availability etc).

Meanwhile back in NZ when undertaking "peaceful" support e.g.
- DOC resupply to off-shore islands.
- Civil Defence disaster assistance (heaps of tents, medical supplies, water, food etc.
- RNZAF Maritime SAR/mercy dash missions etc.

I do agree NZ needs more of the A109's, ideally some more NH90's but because of their costs anyway, could NZ instead keep the NH90's (at 8) and supplement them with 4 Chinooks instead? Would "add value" to the NZDF & give the Govt "more options" (to use catch phrases etc).

I can definately see the logic in your proposal. The only reservation is that new CH-47F's are around the USD100m mark. Refurbished D models come in at about half that. Still pricey, but still suitable.

Getting the chopper fleet right for a small defence force like ours is real headache isn't it? We dont have enough NH-90's and I struggle to see anymore added to be honest, we dont have A-109's which are a still a LUH and not a MUH which is at least were we have the real numbers gap. Yet there are still capability gaps that you have outlined in your post regarding the capability and usefullness of the Chinook when looking ahead. Not to mention some form of continuance of the Huey whether Huey II or new build 412EP. And while we are on the subject of rotary what of the eventual replacement of the SH-2G. The NHF is staggeringly expensive.

When we look at the type of roles we are likely to perform over the next 25 years there is definite merits to be had for 5 different tpes of helicopter in the RNZAF fleet. NH-90, A-109, SH-2G (NHF), plus as I see it a handful of Huey's (stuck up in the islands for months on end for example doing worthy SASO/Disaster type stuff cheaply and so as not to over the task the big ticket stuff at an affordable hourly and being able to lift things that would overcook a lighter A109 which manages around 600kgs) and the Chinook. However 5 types of chopper in our small RNZAF is really stretching it. Unless we put our thinking caps on and work around it of course.

[nige]

Hi Corokid, yes, definitely looking at the capability gap by NZ not having heavy lift (admitedly this is all "academic", as the NZDF planners would naturally be thinking/assessing this periodically behind the scenes, wishing for a pot of gold to fund these things etc). So just thinking, if this is viable, I/we'd be happy to lend public support via these forums, but just trying to clear up whether this is viable or simply "not going to happen, period" because there are no real justifications (for the govt to require such an "output") etc.

One issue as you say would be a small DF like the NZDF/RNZAF operating many types of helicopters - this presumably is problematic from a cost/training/support perspective.

With 3 types - A109, NH90, Seasprite, perhaps Defence/Govt don't want a 4th type. (Just putting aside any refurbished Huey or Aw139/149 options to simplify the discussion etc).

But we still have this (perceived) capability gap, especially in an increasing inter-operable world with our friends, allies, coalition partners, and unfortunately the world situation is indicating years, if not decades of turmoil lies ahead.

So is this time for NZ to get into heavier airlift and buy Chinooks etc? Or continue to "make do" in other words, wear out the few NH90's with constant taskings overseas but still have to call upon Australia or the US to spare us some heavy lift? I'd imagine Australia and the US would want NZ to share some of that burden. Alternatively, like the RNZAF C130's occassionally, any NZ Chinooks could be tasked to support friendly forces thus earning NZ some brownie points etc.

So should NZ simply buy more NH90's instead?

But that DSCA PDF on page 1 outlined Aussie getting 7 at approx NZ$750M. So if these costs are still similar, NZ might be able to acquire 4 Chinooks plus some spares for NZ$430M. $430M doesn't appear too unpalatable (unless there are other hidden costs that NZ would have to wear, seeing that Australia already had the Chook in service and thus experienced personnel, training and procedures in place).

I suppose at the end of the day, yes they would be great for the NZDF, but so would many other items of kit that the NZDF is lacking. Until Defence expenditure is (ever?) increased to accomodate running what we already have well, plus these extra pieces of kit, it just ain't gonna happen!

[Calum]

nlowe said:

But wouldn't that be the point of NZ operating them? i.e.
- NZ Army support on major deployment?
- NZ will continue to operate at high tempo with allied/friendly/coalition/UN forces into the forseable future (due to instability, disputes and conflict surrounding ideology, resources, environment etc)?
Just thinking how handy they could be for a (near) future NZDF deployment in Afghanistan (or the next trouble spot where NZ needs to be interoperable with other bigger nations, supplying alot of logistic support etc) i.e.
- NZ NH90's carrying the troops.
- Backed up by NZ Chinooks carrying the ammo, heavy MG, ATM's, modular command and control & other systems etc, maybe even a 105mm light gun etc.
- SAS operation support.
- Joint ADF/NZDF support (sharing the 2 nations Chooks depending on availability etc).

I do agree with your thinking. A Chinook fleet would be good for all those roles
But ultimately I do think that for the NZDF, a larger medium/small helicopter fleet should be a priority. Primarily to provide some redundancy. But small to medium helicopters are probably more appropriate and affordable for the roles that are likely to be asked of the NZDF in the future.

nlowe said:

Meanwhile back in NZ when undertaking "peaceful" support e.g.
- DOC resupply to off-shore islands.
- Civil Defence disaster assistance (heaps of tents, medical supplies, water, food etc.
- RNZAF Maritime SAR/mercy dash missions etc.

If this was a role then the ministries responsible should pay towords their purchase/support etc.

[beagle]

Oct 13, 2010 12:50:04 GMT 12 nige said:

With 3 types - A109, NH90, Seasprite, perhaps Defence/Govt don't want a 4th type.!

I think with most air arms, they would like to keep their type to a minimum to reduce costs and I asume it would be the same with the NZDF.