When did the last P40 fly with the RNZAF?

[Dave Homewood]

David Duxbury, Ross Ewing and Ross Macpherson's book "Aircraft of the Royal New Zealand Air Force" (1987) says the P40 Kittyhawk/Warhawk was in service from 1942-1946.

However Michael Burgess's book which is also called "Aircraft of the Royal New Zealand Air Force" (1979) says the P40 was in service from 1942-1948.

Most seem to have been sold for scrap in 1948, but is the difference in the dates because perhaps the former refers to years of active service, while the latter refers to years of ownership? And maybe they were stored from 1946-48?

Does anyone know when exactly the last P40 flight took place in the RNZAF?

The same occurs with the Dauntless, where Duxbury/Ewing/Macpherson book says it served 1943-44, but Burgess says 1943-48. Any ideas?

[Ivan]

RNZAF records show that 123 Kittyhawks were on strength with the RNZAF on 01 April 1947, but show there were none remaining by 01 April 1948. Most of these would have been stored after VJ day so a last flight date is a difficult one to work out.
Ivan

[komata]

I realise that this is very old thread, but, FWIW...

There is a very well-known photo of the Meteor III in flight, accompanied by a P-40N and a Corsair. I believe it dates from March 1946, so we know know that at least on P-40 was flying on that specific date.

It's beyond that date that thing become somewhat problematical...

Do the RNZAF Museum-records throw any light on the matter?

[camtech]

Probably the only certain way to confirm dates is via a pilots log book.
Need to identify who was flying at CFS and similar units to get a lead in.

Not sure if I have anything, but will look tonight.

[davidd]

Being one of the co-authors of both versions of one of the mentioned books on RNZAF aircraft (with the late Ross Macpherson and the late Ross Ewing, along with [the presume still alive] Ross Dunlop for the first version only), and sole writer of the earlier part of the narrative covering the wartime and 1950s part of the narrative, I can confirm that the "years of service" periods quoted for particular types did indeed only refer to "active" service, in the sense that at least one example HAD to be flying in the first and last years indicated. I would guess the other book mentioned indicated that the types in question were still officially on strength (or in the care of) the RNZAF/Air Department, but there was no guaranteee that any of them were actually in service or even close to flying condition. I would also agree that the series of photos taken of the Meteor, P-40 and Corsair in formation is the only proof I am aware of that confirms that at least one P-40 was still flying into early 1946.
Incidentally, the unit operating the Meteor, P-40 and Corsair was NOT the CFS, but almost certainly the CFE (Central Fighter Establishment) at Ardmore, which was transferred to Ohakea a few months later.
Dave D

[komata]

Thanks davidd for your post.

The P-40-Meteor III-Corsair photo series at least gives a definitive month (March 1946). However, it raises the question (as a subset) as to when the last Corsair flew  IN NEW ZEALAND?   The activities of 14 SQN's Corsairs in Japan appear to be well documented, but as we are discovering, New Zealand is not so well served.

Do we therefore have a date and details for the last RNZAF Corsair flight in this country? Would it have perhaps been one of 14 SQN's aircraft undertaking an air-test before it was despatched to Japan?

Thanks

[Luther Moore]

You know your stuff David.

[Dave Homewood]

Surely there must have been Corsairs still flying in New Zealand after No. 14 (Occupational) Squadron had left for Japan, because they had rotations of pilots going up there. I cannot imagine they sent up green pilots who then converted to type in Japan, did they? Or were the further rotations all experienced Corsair pilots from WWII??

David, last I heard from Ross Dunlop about 3-4 years back he was living in Australia.

[camtech]

David,you are correct - i was referring to CFE rather than CFS.

Just had a look at some look book data and note entries for the Meteor between 7 Mar and 5 Dec 46, by a pilot attached to the CFE.

For Corsairs, I note two entries of interest: NZ5623 flown from CFE to Ohakea on 6 Dec 46, and NZ5611 flown by a pilot attached to CFE 26 Nov 46. Max Scannell's logbook would be worth looking at (Air Force Museum)

There are some further entries with 1946 dates.

I can find no corresponding dates for Kittyhawks.

[komata]

Camtech

Thank for your research and information. Based upon what you have have found therefore (and focussing on the P-40 for the moment)the following hypothesis could be advanced:

The LAST RNZAF 'official' Kittyhawk flight/s occurred in March 1946, on the occasion of the Meteor-Kittyhawk-Corsair photographs.

(This would be perhaps have been perceived as an 'appropriate' occasion for such a 'last flight' as it portrayed the Oldest/Newer/Newest types 'in service' at the time.)

By way of possible confirmation, do records exist to show when the last P-40 arrived at Rukuhia? (Air Movements Log perhaps?).

As I said, a Hypothesis. I hope it can be proven.

Thanks.

[Dave Homewood]

It is such a strange concept to think of the P-40 as an 'old' fighter in 1946, which it was, considering the first of type arrived in NZ just 4 years before and the one still flying in 1946 was likely a later model and no older than three years old. Today most of our front line aircraft are approaching 50! That P-40 would still be thought of as 'brand new' in today's world.

[komata]

Dave

An interesting point, and an indicator about the advances made in technology in four or so years. In respect of the P-40 itself, it was (from memory) an N-25 model so it was 'relatively' 'new' in respect of 'calendar' age.  In respect of 'technological' 'age' however, it was almost a dinosaur, especially when compared to the Meteor.

It would also have been the slowest of the trio, and the pilot would have been pedalling very rapidly to keep up....

Something to consider:   It seems to me to be somewhat unusual that, despite the war ending some nine-months previously, all three aircraft seem to have retained their camouflage, with the Corsair wearing 'Pacific' markings and the P-40 possibly a 'White' tail.

If we know the unit which provide the 'pistons' for the formation, and the exact date on which the formation was flown and the photo taken, could perusal of its records (if they still exist) identify the 'piston's' involved?  Doing-so would give a certainty of date and identify the machines involved and by so-doing perhaps move us a little closer to answering the original question which startd this thread.. 

Just a thought....  

[pjw4118]

Gentlemen , would somebody like to post this formation photo.

[hairy]

If the note on the back of this photo is to be believed, NZ3102 would appear to still be operational at Ohakea in January 1946....................



 

[Dave Homewood]

Interesting, that is in Gunnery Training School markings. It also seems to wear camouflage pattern, whether it is RAF Dark Green/RAF Dark Earth and Sky or a kiwi repaint it's hard to tell.

Is the rudder a darker colour or just in shadow? Given that the sun is directly above I'm ending to think it's a darker colour, perhaps red for visibility?

[nuuumannn]

It is such a strange concept to think of the P-40 as an 'old' fighter in 1946, which it was, considering the first of type arrived in NZ just 4 years before and the one still flying in 1946 was likely a later model and no older than three years old.

I guess it boils down to capability; the P-40 was past its best by the time the RNZAF received it, performance wise. It was a good, hardy aircraft in the environment it was working in, but in 1942/43 it was being left behind, figuratively and physically.

[Dave Homewood]

If that aircraft is NZ3102, it's one of the P-40E's that was in Tonga and New Caledonia with No's 15 Squadron! NZ3102 ended up being sold to Larsens in 1948.

[scrooge]

Nov 27, 2013 10:34:11 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Is the rudder a darker colour or just in shadow? Given that the sun is directly above I'm ending to think it's a darker colour, perhaps red for visibility?

I'd say the rudder is in shadow, due to being off set to the left or right (i.e. the aircraft was parked with a left or right rudder input). Backed up by the tailwheel being at 90 degrees to the orientation of the aircraft. You can tell the rudder is not straight by the gap at the top of it between the rudder horn and the top of the fin.

[mit]

Nov 27, 2013 10:40:38 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

If that aircraft is NZ3102, it's one of the P-40E's that was in Tonga and New Caledonia with No's 15 Squadron! NZ3102 ended up being sold to Larsens in 1948.

Here it is in the yard

[komata]

As we might possibly be going-off on a tangent here, can someone (as pjw4118 has already asked)please put up photo/s of the three aircraft formation. Based-upon what I have seen to date, I believe there are at least two different images in existence. Unfortunately, I do not have access to them, but someone must, and be able to scan them, so....

Thanks.