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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 29, 2013 12:52:41 GMT 12
A quick note, after all these years I have realised this thread was in the wrong Board, so I've moved it to the postwar board.
On the topic of postwar Corsairs at Ardmore I hope Bryan Cox won't mind, I am copying the ones he flew there in 1945-46 from his logbook.
No. 16 (Fighter) Squadron RNZAF - Ardmore 05 November 1945 - NZ5469 - Ardmore to Rukuhia (he returned on a C-47)
Fighter Training Pool - Ardmore 28 November 1945 - NZ5561 - Air to Air 30 November 1945 - NZ5538 - Formation
No. 14 (Occupational) Squadron, Ardmore 03 December 1945 - NZ5561 - Formation 04 December 1945 - NZ5550 - Formation 10 December 1945 - NZ5537 - Formation 12 December 1945 - NZ5560 - Cover over HMS Indefatigable 13 December 1945 - NZ5561 - Formation 17 December 1945 - NZ5563 - Formation
07 January 1946 - NZ5562 - Formation 09 January 1946 - NZ5546 - Formation 11 January 1946 - NZ5556 - Formation 15 January 1946 - NZ5565 - Formation 15 January 1946 - NZ5570 - 20° Dive - Dry Rocket Runs 17 January 1946 - NZ5567 - Rhubarb 21 January 1946 - NZ5556 - Air to Ground 21% 24 January 1946 - NZ5542 - Air to Ground 52%
04 February 1946 - NZ5523 - Formation 05 February 1946 - NZ5538 - Formation 07 February 1946 - NZ5525 - Formation over Auckland 08 February 1946 - NZ5537 - Formation over Auckland
That was his last flight in a Corsair in new Zealand, before he and the squadron embarked for Japan.
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Post by komata on Nov 29, 2013 15:10:46 GMT 12
Dave
Thanks for the information - more pieces to a somewhat complicated jigsaw. BTW,judging from his post, it would seem that the image of the formation was 'Shorty's' COPY not an original negative, which he in turn obtained from Mr. Mason. in Hamilton.
As Ardmore seems to have been largely eliminated from contention, and still trying to get-at the information another way, more questions...
Do we know the date of the Rukuhia Air show in 1946, and any idea about the RNZAF aircraft that participated?
If the photo WAS taken at Rukuhia, do records exist (RNZAF perhaps, as it was still an air station at the time) to indicate aircraft-movements on the Air Show day?
Was/is the 'formation' photograph an 'official' RNZAF one, taken as an air-to-air', or was it a 'low-level one taken at (for example) Rukuhia? The clouds in the background are sufficiently ambiguous to enable either option to be a possibility.
If the former, would Wigram have copies?
If the latter, then we may have reached a dead-end on that particular line of enquiry.
The search continues...
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 29, 2013 17:32:24 GMT 12
Dave Thanks for the information - more pieces to a somewhat complicated jigsaw. BTW,judging from his post, it would seem that the image of the formation was 'Shorty's' COPY not an original negative, which he in turn obtained from Mr. Mason. in Hamilton. I'll let Shorty sort that one out here if he wishes, but my impression from a PM I received was Shorty printed it himself from Mr Mason's negative. I don't know if he owns the negative now or not. Not necessarily. We have established that it's unlikely any P-40's were based at Ardmore at the time although this is not 100% established, and we cannot rule out a visiting aircraft joining in on the fun. No, and I'm not 100% certain it was 1946 that the photos i have seen were taken although that has been suggested to me. Sadly Papers past photos only go up to 1945 so it's hard to find any archived articles without going hunting in an actual archive. In the photos from the Open Day appear Curtiss P-40 Kittyhawk North American Harvard Douglas C-47 Dakota Lockheed PV-1 Ventura (several) de Havilland DH-89B Dominie Lockheed RB-34 Ventura Grumman TBF-1c Avenger You'll have to find the Station Record Book for Rukuhia to answer that. If they exist. I'd also check Ardmore's Station Record Book. i have no idea where they might be held if at all. My feeling is that the photo is ground-to-air and taken with a simple camera (Box Brownie perhaps). Email Matthew O'Sullivan on research@airforcemuseum.co.nz and see what he can find. The search continues...
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Post by htbrst on Nov 29, 2013 18:03:10 GMT 12
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Post by htbrst on Nov 29, 2013 18:48:29 GMT 12
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Post by shorty on Nov 29, 2013 18:58:29 GMT 12
How I got the photo, around 1966/66 I was participating in the De Havilland Trophy model aircraft competition which was an ATC competition. The format was for teams representing the 3 areas to compete with three entries each in four classes, i.e. a total of 12 cadets in each team. I was in the team from Northern Area Office as was a cadet from Hamilton whose name was (I think) Stu Mason?. We became freinds and later that year I visited him at his parents house in Hamilton overlooking the lake. Whilst there he showed me his fathers album and amongst many interesting photos of aircraft there was the one in question. At that time the methods of copying photos was very limited so I got permission from his father to photograph (35mm format)the interesting photos right there on their lounge floor. That is the reason the photo is the quality you see. During the same visit we went to Rukuhia to see the the Corsair there which had the crunched rudder at that stage from the idiot truck driver. I'm not sure if it was a RNZAF official photo or not. There may have been a date on the back of the photo but it wasn't removed from the album.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 29, 2013 19:47:48 GMT 12
Thanks for clarifying that Nev.
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Post by komata on Nov 29, 2013 20:21:27 GMT 12
Thanks Dave, and Shorty.
So, back to Ardmore we go, and we are still in 1946. On the basis of the above, it can be seems safe to state that in that year, CFS Ardmore was home to a P-40N-25...
Now we need to know which specific one.
The plot thickens....
CFS: Therefore, the photo (at least the one in the Pacific Wings) is an RNZAF official one. Very curious.
Assuming they still exist, where are such items held? Wigram?
Fun stuff...
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Post by shorty on Nov 29, 2013 20:39:20 GMT 12
Its not known if the photo was an official RNZAF one,at least not the photo I supplied to NZ Wings which is the same one as above
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 29, 2013 22:02:19 GMT 12
Komata, it's not CFS (Central Flying School). CFS was never at Ardmore. It is CFE, Central Fighter Establishment. At that time CS was at Wigram, which is where the Meteor went to for a few weeks before returning to CFE, Ardmore.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 30, 2013 0:40:52 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 30, 2013 1:14:18 GMT 12
Another shot from the same event - shows they still war WWII pacific markings on the Corsairs in 1947 in NZ! "North Island Air Pageant. Second Lieutenant H H smith (engineer officer, Ohakea) and Sister J Davidson" 22 Feb 1947
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Post by komata on Nov 30, 2013 5:36:27 GMT 12
Thanks Dave for the images and the correction. The photo's have advanced the 'last Corsair in the NEW ZEALAND RNZAF' date a bit further; any advance on 22 February 1947.
A side-issue BTW, (and because the aircraft in the bottom photo seems to have had at least one respray) when did the RNZAF introduce its post-WWII roundels on its New Zealand-based aircraft?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 30, 2013 8:20:22 GMT 12
Obviously the introduction of postwar roundels was gradual because the No. 14 Squadron FG-1D Corsairs wore fresh postwar roundels in 1946. Probably so they matched other British aircraft in Japanese airspace, but that was a whole year before these photos were allegedly taken.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 30, 2013 8:21:20 GMT 12
I guess all the other aeroplanes seen in those shots are ex-RNZAF?
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Post by shorty on Nov 30, 2013 10:09:29 GMT 12
Another clue to the Corsair question, I have a photo of two of them at an Airshow at New Plymouth with Mosquito NZ 2302 in the foreground which puts it after December 1946
Regarding the Roundels, In April 1946 a policy decision was taken to revert gradually to RAF markings – at the time this meant C type roundels in all positions. This standard was just beginning to gain widespread effect when, in June 1947, the RAF introduced the D roundel to replace the C. I think the relevant word there is gradually.
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Post by davidd on Nov 30, 2013 11:09:52 GMT 12
Mentions of an "air display" at Rukuhia in 1946 are, I believe, mistaken. Also presence of a B-34 Ventura (presume in apparent flying order?) probably rules out such a date, as the last half dozen B-34s were sent to the "Graveyard" (actually No. 1 ASU) at Rukuhia in mid-June 1945 from Whenuapai, and never flew again. However an "open day" was held at Rukuhia in September 1944 as part of a national "Air Force week" of some kind, which affected many RNZAF stations throughout NZ including Wigram, Woodbourne, Ohakea, Ardmore (I think), Whenuapai, etc, and quite a number of official photos were taken at Rukuhia, including one showing the odd B-34 and PV-1 in background. A double-page centrespread of a selection of these photos appeared in the Weekly News of about October 1944. These include well-kown views of C-47s, etc, at Whenuapai, and Corsairs from Ardmore flying over Auckland in formations. David D
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Post by komata on Nov 30, 2013 11:48:25 GMT 12
Thanks Gentlemen, more pieces to 'arrange'. We are making progress...
To precis:
The Piston / Meteor 'Formation' photograph was taken sometime after March 1946.
The Base for aircraft in the formation: CFE Ardmore, not Rukuhia.
At least one P-40 was still 'in service' with the RNZAF during that year.
New Zealand-based Corsair's: In RNZAF service until AT LEAST 22 February 1947.
(Photo-series taken at Ohakea?)
BTW: Do records exist (side from pilot logbooks) to indicate military aircraft movements into Rukuhia during 1946/1947?
Next.....?
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Post by Peter Lewis on Nov 30, 2013 12:03:17 GMT 12
Does anyone recognise the venue? Looking at the regos on those Tigers, ZK-AIH was Middle Districts AC, Milson, ZK-AIL was Hawera AC, ZK-AIB was MDAC and ZK-ALU was Waikato. I'd guesstimate that the location was Palmerston North.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 30, 2013 13:08:29 GMT 12
In the National Library collection there are some photos of pilots beside a Corsair at Ohakea two days after that air event on 22 Feb 1947, and I recognise a couple of the pilots as guys who went up to Japan as the second echelon for No. 14 Squadron. So this explains why Corsairs were still flying in NZ till that time, they were indeed - as I suggested earlier in the thread - doing training or continuity flying for the replacement pilots. I don't know if Ohakea was significant as the place they were doing it or if they were passing through on the way back from the airshow - which as peter suggest may have been at Milson. Noel Hanna was one of the pilots in the photos but sadly his logbook was lost in a barrack fire in Japan. On another topic from above I have found the two photos from that RNZAF Station Rukuhia open day. These are both Air Force Museum of New Zealand Official. I think David's right, these look to be 1944 rather than 1946. I cannot recall where I picked up that 1946 date, but I know someone sent me a cutting from the Waikato Times about an open day there postwar circa 1946 from memory where people in their hundreds were stealing bits from the stored aircraft, filling their cars up and legging it! That's on the forum here somewhere, from years ago when I posted it. I think it may have been the late John Scullin sent me the cutting. Does anyone recall that?
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