CAC Ceres

[denysjones]

Oh no...red alert cane toad lurking on the forum!

Nope sorry mate I really would like a Ceres for our collection it sort of sits somewhere between the Harvard and the Airtruck me thinks.

You coming over for Wanaka?

[ron]

Affirm.

Unfortunately CHC will be a whistle stop.

Regards

[Dave Homewood]

denysjones said:

Dave I don't think you right on the F27 front.

At Harewood are 3 a/c

1. The Fairchild which belongs to the crashfire of CIAL and lurks outside on the lawn.

2. The part airframe in the training school which belongs to the training school and is partially chopped and has been used may times over for skin repair.

3. The whole a/c which is the property of ANZ corporate but lives in the training school and which I have been told on many an occasion "has not been assigned to anyone" and equally I have been told is not up to the training school to decide the fate of.

What conclusive proof have you that MoTaT has "a Friendship stored by ANZ"?

The only evidence I have is the deputy Aviation Section manager at Motat told me just that in May 2005 when I chatted with him up there, that they have a F-27 stored at Harewood awaiting to come to Motat. I forget the chap's name right now but I have his card at home. I was amazed when he said that as i had no idea they had an F-27 but the layout plan seems to prove they have intentions of placing an F-27 in the museum in the future. he said it was donated to them by Air NZ when they were withdrawn from service from memory but had been sitting at Chch for a while.

So it's heresay but from a direct source, ie one of the guys who manages/d the place at that time. I was interviewing him for a film.

[derekbu]

For any fans of the Ceres who are on FaceBook, there's a new FaceBook group for sharing stories and photos of the Ceres. www.facebook.com/groups/cac.ceres/

[derekbu]

Feb 5, 2008 20:42:37 GMT 12 Richard Wesley said:

Checked with a good Motat friend on the Ceres wings (as I am overseas right now) and the old girls two wings are the originals and have been completely refurbished ready for refitting when required. I'll take and post some photos when I get back to confirm it first hand.

He thinks that maybe the story refers to the other Ceres that was out at Ardmore at that time? Was that BSQ? Maybe Ken Jacob's example has two of the same??

Hi Richard, did you ever get some photos?

Regards,
Derek

[emron]

I’ve always taken Bruce’s story about the Ceres’ wings as just comical verging on mischievous, but in case anyone still takes it seriously, here’s a photo taken today of MOTAT’s set at Meola Rd. I’ll leave it up to you to decide if it’s a matching pair right and left. The flaps, ailerons and leading edge slats are all stored close by. If you care to count the number of wing attachment bolts required we can probably find those too. We can even call out the pitot tube when the time comes.

ZK_BPU_wings_27_6_21 by Ron Wilson, on Flickr

[emron]

I was recently asked by an overseas researcher to check out the cockpit of MOTAT’s Ceres for any number plates that might be fitted there. I found both the manufacturer’s plate and a mod plate. I gave them a clean up to make them more legible and was surprised to discover what was stamped on both. I was expecting them to read manufacturer’s number CA28-4 - the correct one for ZK-BPU (ex VH-CED). But instead they showed CA28-8 and the manufacturer’s plate had serial number VH-CEI.

Before you rush off to perpetuate the story that there’s another Ceres altogether masquerading under that paint scheme, I think I have a more plausible explanation that points to a multiple identity instead.

ZK-BPU was upgraded to Ceres C status sometime around 1961. That involved the addition of a passenger compartment behind the pilot. This required an extended canopy to be fitted and with an access hatch to the rear compartment. Previously I had thought that the mod was done using a new kit of parts from the factory but it now looks like the whole cockpit section was transplanted from the wreck of another of Aerial Farming’s fleet.
ZK-BXY (CA28-8 ex VH-CEI) ran off the strip and crashed at Turangarere, near Taihape, on 3 February 1961. It was less than six months old and had only flown 123 hours but was damaged enough to be written off. The upper part of the fuselage sustained little harm, was near new and would have been suitable for salvage. I surmise that the original plates from that structure must have been carried over with it and remained there during the rest of BPU’s time in service.
I’d welcome anyone’s recollections, photos and the exact date of that upgrade so we could confirm the theory. If true, we can now add substantial parts of BXY to the Ceres Survivor’s list.
ZK-BPU itself later had an accident near Waipukurau on 18 February 1964, extent of damage unknown, but that too could have involved repairs using parts from another airframe.
My next challenge is to check out as many of the other components of BPU that I can access, to determine the extent of the modification and find proof of identity for the remainder. I’ll let you know what I uncover.

[Deleted]

What a fascinating development! Thanks for letting us know, Ron! I’m intrigued to see what else surfaces.

Would it be okay if I shared this in the “CAC Ceres Friends” Facebook group?

[emron]

Good idea, if they’re not still active on this Board.

They may well have more of the answers to this puzzle and might even know in who’s trophy cabinet the original data plate for BPU now lies.

[The Red Baron]

You would guess they rebuilt BXY's fuselage,then when BPU came in for its overhaul they whipped the wings off it and put them on the rebuilt fuselage,then rolled it out as BPU,as they never seemed to use written off a/c rego's again back then,even if they were rebuildable.
Just like they used to mix'n'match the Fletcher rebuilds.

[derekbu]

I’ll have to check into my collection and have a look at this. Conversion to the Type C configuration (with the rear passenger seat) required changes to the roll-over frame, so it was not as simple as changing the upper fuselage skin structure. See page 65 in my book showing the different cockpit configurations and page 111 showing the slight difference in the roll-over frame (single rear bracing tube of the Type B frame was replaced by twin rear bracing tubes for the Type C frame).

BPU was converted to Type C configuration some time in 1961 and BXY crashed in February 1961, so the parts would have been available.

Ron, if you can check the details on the frame “bracelet” tag, that will shed some more light on this. I’m assuming Mark P has explained where to find this. It’s possible it will be covered with paint and unreadable, so you may need to get some paint stripper onto it.

Let me know if you have questions. I’m in the middle of two busy weeks, so it may take a few days to check in my files…

Regards,
Derek

[emron]

Derek, thanks for this extra detail. I was down at the Museum today but like you got engrossed in my regular project and couldn’t spare the time to go visit the Ceres. I’ll be back on Wednesday armed with Mark’s and your info and if time permits, hunt down some tags and data plates. If it turns out I need to remove hatches and panels etc., I may leave a more thorough search until the end of the month when the display hall will be closed to the public for a spell.

[Peter Lewis]

Photos taken at MoTAT in June this year:

[emron]

Too embarrassed to admit to not having a copy of Derek’s book handy, I checked for other references and found a copy of the Repair Manual in the workshop library. Chapter 53-4, Pages 7 and 7a showed the differences between the two versions of turnover truss. I noted that they are welded integral to the entire front fuselage frame. I guess I now have to check if that whole structure was transplanted from BXY in the conversion. One issue though, is that during BXY’s accident the engine tore off. That wasn’t a clean break and there must have been damage to the front bulkhead and engine mount lugs at least. The forward outer panels were creased and wrinkled, indicating things inside may have got twisted as well. I’ll get back there on Sunday for more answers.

[Mustang51]

Very fond memories of a flight in Doug's Ceres from Temora. Quite strange looking backwards but eminently better than flying in the hopper !

[emron]

Jul 10, 2021 21:58:58 GMT 12 The Red Baron said:

You would guess they rebuilt BXY's fuselage,then when BPU came in for its overhaul they whipped the wings off it and put them on the rebuilt fuselage,then rolled it out as BPU,as they never seemed to use written off a/c rego's again back then,even if they were rebuildable.
Just like they used to mix'n'match the Fletcher rebuilds.

I’m sure that if it was economic they would have gone ahead and rebuilt the newer BXY. At least one of the undercarriage legs was torn off it in the accident and the left outer wing was punctured and twisted. So there was probably little that could be salvaged of it’s wing structure. I tend to agree with you now that the front fuselage must have been repairable and at least that whole assembly was transferred onto BPU’s wing centre section during the conversion.
My search is still on to find how extensive that swap of parts was. Last week I shone a torch through the side panel opening of BPU and along all of the frame tubes that I could reach, but no sign of tags or identity markings. I’ll go back there next month and gain access to the hopper and firewall area to see if there is any evidence of repairs or ID plates there.

When we last restored BPU back around 2005 there was even less display space available and the decision was made to leave the wings off and put them into storage. They were never fully re-assembled. On Wednesday I thought it was about time to collect the box of loose fittings from the shelf and work out where they fitted back on. They were mostly brackets to attach the leading edge slat to the wing, so I searched out the two slats as well. When I laid them on a trestle I noticed a mod plate rivetted on each. One had serial no. 28-4, so we now know of at least one part off BPU that must have left the factory attached to VH-CED. Now to find proof of more.

[Deleted]

Jun 27, 2021 17:35:59 GMT 12 emron said:

I’ve always taken Bruce’s story about the Ceres’ wings as just comical verging on mischievous, but in case anyone still takes it seriously, here’s a photo taken today of MOTAT’s set at Meola Rd. I’ll leave it up to you to decide if it’s a matching pair right and left. The flaps, ailerons and leading edge slats are all stored close by. If you care to count the number of wing attachment bolts required we can probably find those too. We can even call out the pitot tube when the time comes.

Ron, I've just had to share this comment and your pic on Facebook to correct an Aussie who trotted out the old myth while posting in a group about BPU. I hope you don't mind but I figured a photo was worth a thousand words!!

[Deleted]

Does anyone know when Ken Jacobs - or whomever the current owner is - came into possession of ZK-BSQ? And where is it today, whatever remains?

“In 1973, the fuselage ZK-BSQ was stored on a farm near Wanganui. In 1989, it was noted at Auckland-Ardmore stored dismantled and damaged. In July 2011 ZK-BSQ was reported to be owned by a Mr Ken Jacobs, Riverhead, Auckland, New Zealand, where restoration was cancelled and it was reduced to spares – and was thought be derelict in a warehouse.” – A Consolidated History of The Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation CA28 Ceres Agricultural Aircraft – V2.0 Jan 2014 by Peter Reardon

[Peter Lewis]

I have a date of 2006 at Riverhead.

[Deleted]

Thanks Peter I appreciate that.