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Post by pjw4118 on Dec 30, 2010 16:37:05 GMT 12
You're welcome , part 2 about Harris and the BC medal is still to come.I am NOT an expert but have accumulated a lot of commentaries which all seem to point to the same conclusion. I had hoped to reply earlier but an overdose of Xmas pud left the brain addled. Its quite a nice felling really.
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Post by oggie2620 on Dec 31, 2010 12:01:33 GMT 12
I love you "little" one. I went to see it when I was over in NZ earlier in the year... its a fabulous tribute and hence why I want to see ours done. Runnymede is only for the missing and some of the sqns dont have any commemoration at all. It will cover our commonwealth colleagues and other countries who supplied Bomber Command with people I hope so bringing it all together in the country where a lot of them served.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 31, 2010 17:11:06 GMT 12
Out of interest, were the bomber squadrons who flew the likes of the Welligntons and Bostons etc in the North African campaign under the umbrella of Bomber Command? Or were they under the Desert Air Force? Or a whole seperate entity altogether?
Are there any memorials, national or otherwise, to the Desert Air Force? Or the Air Forces in India and Burma?
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Post by oggie2620 on Jan 1, 2011 8:23:16 GMT 12
Actually I dont know. Next campaign if not!!! Will have to ask the guys on RAFCommands forum they might know...
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Post by pjw4118 on Jan 1, 2011 9:54:46 GMT 12
RAF Bomber Command like Fighter Command were UK based. The bombing component of the middle and far East came under their own commands, MEAF and FEAF.A lot of the crews did go through the UK OTU system before being posted often as a complete crew, their first op being a ferry flight with a new aircraft . Quite a challenge to fly over the Bay of Biscay then onto Africa sometimes via Malta. Roy Montrowes account in Kiwis Do Fly ( plug ! ) fills in many details , flies and all. The Desert Air Force was commanded by Aussie born but Kiwi raised ( so he's ours ) AVM Coningham and his efforts with limited gear and especially his work with Eisenhower brought him back as head of the 2nd TAF for D Day.
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Post by errolmartyn on Jan 1, 2011 12:16:52 GMT 12
Wellington (and later Halifax and Liberator) bombers engaged in the bombing campaign in the Middle East/Med operated as part of No 205 Group from 23 Oct 1941 to war's end. In effect, the group served as a mini-Bomber Command.
MEAF and FEAF were post war commands and did not exist during WWII. The wartime command structure in the Middle East/Med, in particular, was a complex and ever-changing animal - in part a reflection of changing theatres and combined ops with the Americans - that would take a small essay to explain.
Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 1, 2011 14:00:01 GMT 12
Thanks chaps. I thought they must have been seperate from the British Bomber Command but was never certain of that.
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Post by chinapilot on Jan 1, 2011 18:43:43 GMT 12
People forget about that these days....
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Post by pjw4118 on Jan 2, 2011 10:49:51 GMT 12
Bomber Command Medal, Harris and the Politics. Here’s a summary of a number of accounts from books listed in the previous piece about Dresden. None of the 155,000 who served with Bomber Command nor the 55,000 who were killed were aware that their efforts and sacrifice would later become so political and their efforts a byline to much infighting and jealousy. The lack of a Command medal and Harris’s belated elevated Knighthood appears to be the result of a long feud between one John Strachey and Arthur Harris. Strachey (the son of the Spectator Newspaper Editor) went to Eaton and Cambridge where he was probably turned from a traditional conservative by the ‘communist nest’ at the University. However he joined Oswald Mosleys British Facist Party and when things became too hot he joined the Communist Party (not card carrying) and moderated his line to suit Labour. Prewar, he visited the Soviet Union twice and was arrested in the USA for giving public speeches denouncing capitalisation. His family denounced him as their ‘mad dog offspring’. Coming into the Wartime Government on Atlees’s Labour Party ticket, Strachey (ex fascist now undeclared communist, and a friend of the gaoled spy Springhill) was appointed as a Squadron Leader to the Directorate of Bomber Operations. Harris’s demanded him removed as an ‘unstable security risk’ but failed due to Strackeys old boy network. The intense dislike and distrust from Harris continued to wars end and Harris’s nature wouldn’t let the problem lie. In 1945 a Labour Government under Atlee was elected and Strachey was appointed Under Secretary for Air. Harris’s expected Baronacy and Governership of Bermuda were cancelled. This was the start of discrediting Harris and Bomber Command, the men who did the work, when it was the policy of area bombing that was really in debate.Perhaps by discrediting Harris and Bomber Command Strachey was serving his Soviet masters by making the one force that the Soviets then had little defence against (night mass bombing) was sidelined. On January 2, 1946 the Daily Mirror under a headline of ‘Left Out’ apologised to Harris on behalf of Britain for the omission. He ‘retired’ to South Africa. In 1952 with Churchills return to power, Sir Arthur Harris was finally made a baronet. His nemises Strachey became implicated in the Fuchs spy scandal of 1951 and finally Atlee was forced to release ‘this embarrassment’ from his cabinet. It is said that on his death in 1963 this dispised man was not accorded even an obituary in the Times nor by his family’ By then the question of a BC medal and memorial was gone ‘there was a fanatical desire on the part of ‘historians’, writers, journalists and televisions to degrade the character of the one commander to whom much of their liberty was owed. Unchallenged, unchecked, inaccurate reports of a war they never knew! In Canada who had lost over 10,000 air crew in Bomber Command, surviving veterans were forced to take out lawsuits against the media for comments and accusations of murder. This was in 1998. In retirement Harris remained silent but for letters of thanks he sent to aircrew associations, these make amazing reading, as does this one from Eisenhowerr in 1964. ‘no historian could possibly be aware of the depth of my obligation to you’ Ike. So no medal and until 2012 no British memorial because of a vindictive communist who appeared able to extract his ‘queer’ revenge using the old boys network and the Labour Government. Certainly the British Establishment looked after its chums and our own Sir Keith park and Air Marshal Air Coningham also suffered at their hands. Somebody else can comment on the treatment of these outstanding Kiwis. ‘The Bomber Boy’s all now in their 80’s and 90’s are resigned to the lack of a special medal but are more content that memorials exist and that there are books and TV programmes that accurately portray their lives and the risks they took over sixty years ago. This posting isn’t in anyway definitive but a best attempt to summarise of the events that occurred. Moral, don’t upset a queer commie with influence. Sounds familiar? You be the judge. Daylight raids in April 1945 now common for RAF Bomber Command. Photos by 75 Squadron F/O Esmond Ware flying C Flight JN-M NE181 'The Captains Fancy'
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 2, 2011 23:30:44 GMT 12
Thanks Peter. that was well put so easily understood. Indeed it is personal politics, not even national politics, that has caused issues.
Going back to my original statement on this thread however which sparked this interesting debate - I do not think that Bomber Command has been airbrushed from history, as stated. They have been maligned and mal-treated, sure, and I knew that. But they are a big part of history and are much remembered, and always will be. I salute them for their incredible bravery.
Now, that third photo above, it looks almost 3-D. How is that? Have you taken it through a stereoscope or something? It's amazing to see. And on that note does anyone have a photo of the cameras that were used to produce those 3-D stereoscope photos that Bomber Command used?
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Post by pjw4118 on Jan 3, 2011 8:08:16 GMT 12
Dave I agree with you , perhaps the comparison , which is unfair, the Battle of Britain pilots will always be regarded as heroes and quite rightly while the BC boys havent been .But they are getting fair recognition these days. With the last photo, I tweeked the shadows which made the buildings stand up a bit but many of the post raid shots I have are very sharp with lots of contrast.If you look at p171 in KDF there are more like this plus one showing the large format camera used. .
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Post by strikemaster on Jan 4, 2011 9:28:47 GMT 12
Airbrushed isn't the right term, ignored would be better. They still have their place in history, remembered by those with enough drive to do something about it, just not the level they should have. I'm sure time will reveal more tributes as only it can and that as these old commies drop off the noise makers will outweigh those with their own nasty agenda's.
Anyone can make a plaque and put it somewhere, but they should have been afforded the courtesy of a big thank you from official's after the war. That's my point, not that no one remembers them.
Thanks, pjw4118. I never knew about any of that.
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Post by oggie2620 on Jan 9, 2011 1:16:06 GMT 12
There are more small memorials going up all the time and after my trip to Holland I would say that personalisation of each crew is great. The bomber guys themselves are happy to see those but they will be even happier to see something big. I look forward to seeing the guys from NZBCA at the opening of this long awaited memorial...
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Post by pjw4118 on May 23, 2011 17:39:02 GMT 12
On June 5 there is a Commonwealth wide wreath laying for those lost on RAF Bomber Command. The NZ event will be at 11 am at the BC Memorial , Auckland WM Museum. This is situated on the second floor by the Spitfire gallery. Veterans, RSA and RAAF reps are expected.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 23, 2011 17:58:08 GMT 12
This is the same day as the Warbirds Open Day at Ardmore.
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