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Post by flyjoe180 on Feb 6, 2012 17:01:01 GMT 12
Indeed, but wouldn't want to be on the other end of the cameras! (gun cameras)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 14, 2013 11:13:04 GMT 12
I have just got off the phone after a great conversation with former wartime RNZAF flighter pilot Norman Kiddle in Australia. He flew a tour with No. 19 Squadron and then three tours with No. 24 Squadron.
I asked him about the call signs and he said although he can't recall it ever being used as a specific radio call sign, he knows for sure that No. 24 Squadron was known as "The Black Panthers", and he says that he has a Christmas card somewhere with their symbol on, that was drawn by fellow pilot Norm Rosser.
So that is now:
No. 16 Squadron - Onyx Squadron
No. 22 Squadron = Katipo Squadron
No. 23 Squadron = Ghost Squadron
No. 24 Squadron = The Black Panthers Squadron
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Post by davidd on Jan 15, 2013 16:48:28 GMT 12
I very much doubt that 16 Squadron was known as the Onyx squadron. Such a name is never mentioned in either their official or their unofficial history (the latter being probably the more interesting of the two!) I think this is probably a mix up with Section names/callsigns. During WW2 the RNZAF subdivided the two Flights which made up each fighter squadron into five (later six) Sections, with each section being asigned a distinctive name for various purposes, including providing the Section name as well as radio call sign prefix (as in Red leader, Red 2, Red 3, Red 4, Green Leader, etc.) Mostly they used colours for identification, as Red, Blue, Green, Yellow, Black White for instance. Another scheme used alcoholic drinks (Gin, Beer, Rum, etc) and a third scheme was to use precious stones, such as onyx, diamond, ruby. See where I am coming from?
David D
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Post by davidd on Jan 15, 2013 16:57:38 GMT 12
Something else comes to mind re squadron "Names". In mid 1944, during its second tour, No. 19 Squadron (under the famous "Van", Mortimer Tuke Vanderpump), was blessed with a "spy" (Intelligence Officer) who shall remain nameless for the moment, but this gentleman was fascinated by the American squadrons they flew alongside, or at least flew from the same airfields, who were always seemingly known by fancy "names" (often bloodthirsty, sometimes more poetic), and was determined that "his" squadron should also be so enobled (in his eyes). Thus he came up with "The Fighting Nineteenth", but the rest of "the troops" were not in favour, and thought the whole idea was a load of crap. So it never really caught on, apart from the one enthusiast), but I have seen the odd bit of material using this title (the "spy" was in a good position to produce such stuff - he had the paper, the typewriter, the time and the inclination).
Source for this information: the later P D (Peter) Gifford, one time senior flight commander and deputy CO of 19 Squadron during its second tour, deceased December 2001.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 15, 2013 19:37:31 GMT 12
Thanks for the correction regarding that Onyx call sign David. I guess Bryan was in Onyx Section rather than Onyx Squadron, then.
I have seen reference to The Fighting Nineteenth in the No. 19 Squadron Diary. Interesting that it was not generally accepted as an official squadron monicor.
I recall that No. 14 Squadron also referred to themselves as The Fighting Fourteenth in later years, on their stickers, in the Strikemaster days.
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Post by curtiss on Jan 17, 2013 20:54:14 GMT 12
The ghost logo was also on the 23 Sqn felt pennant. Unfortunately I do not have this pennant myself, but here is a copy of it.  |
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Post by Brenton on Jan 18, 2013 18:39:27 GMT 12
There's a new book called "This Smuttee Squadron" written by Gordon Clark ,Australian Military Author,who's father was in 78 squadron RAAF. www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEAQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.78squadron.com.au%2FThis_Smuttee_Squadron.html&ei=fun4UO_4AeaiigfGrYD4AQ&usg=AFQjCNEuDf5nL_BccZ-ONVxqk82-lMxPZw&sig2=D8jWHGpikOZCSTULO7rnSwI haven't read the book but was told this about it.... 'During each operation (there could have been several in a day), each air element was assigned a 'nickname' , for example 78 SQN could have been Tea Cup, with each aircraft being assigned a number after that nickname, so you'd end up with Tea Cup 1, 2, 3 etc. Usually the nick names changed from op to op. All elements would have been made aware of the nicknames etc during their briefings, so if they heard 'Teacup' on the radio, they'd know that it was the 78SQN P40's. Smuttee was one of these nick names, but it stuck, and was used for 78 SQN for many Ops.' I have asked my dad, who flew with 26 Sqn., again about this but no he doesn't remember anything like that. He was only a flight sergeant so doesn't prove anything either way I guess. Attachments:
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Post by Officer Crabtree on Jan 18, 2013 21:39:37 GMT 12
Curtiss, would you mind if I put those photos on 23 (Nelson) Sqn. ATC's Facebook page? I'm sure my officers would be very interested in them.
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Post by curtiss on Jan 19, 2013 17:44:21 GMT 12
Officer Crabtree: Thats fine. Thanks for asking.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 21, 2013 17:50:25 GMT 12
Wow, Mike that pennant is awesome, nice find. Thanks for posting that! I wonder if any still exist anywhere.
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Post by dewobz on Jan 29, 2013 15:22:44 GMT 12
On the subject of modelling I am really really interested in both the Katipo emblem, the 4SU emblem - which is also the subject of another thread - and 'whatever that is' behind the man's shoulder in Curtiss's photograph? It looks like the outline of a horse's head or lizard's head (or something) to me? Curtiss, is it possible to get an enlargement of that portion of the photo?
Cheers, Wally.
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Post by davidd on Feb 2, 2013 9:09:58 GMT 12
Came across the following "fighting song" in the record box for No. 9 (BR) Squadron at Wigram, to be sung to the tune "It's foolish but it's fun!"; incidentally nobody seems to have claimed ownership of these words! There is no doubt that this is genuinely No. 9 Squadron, RNZAF (it has that subtle kiwi twang about it); it would date from their second tour (first on PV-1s), May to August 1944, based at Piva North (Bougainville).
"SONG OF THE FIGHTING NINTH"
I love to fly a PV-1
Get up each morning with the sun
And drop explosives by the ton
In weather wet or fine.
A snappy rendezvous we keep
New Ireland airfields we will sweep
In line abreast like bloody sheep
Oh foolish number nine.
With turret guns and belly guns
And front point fives as well,
We do a hop across Borpop,
And kick up merry hell.
And when our bombs have been spewed forth
And made old Tojo very wrath
We stooge off back to Piva North
And shoot a horrid line.
Now when brassed off with pounding Nips
You find us out on weather trips
In Simpson Harbour counting ships
Oh reckless number nine.
And when we sink the odd Jap sub
A present for our Uncle Gub
A roar will go through every pub
Efficient number nine.
We really give old Tojo hell
Once we make a start
And Comairsols will send around
Six yards of purple heart.
No other squadron up this way
Can booze all night and fly all day
And still live on to get their pay
Like fearless number nine.
And in case you are wondering, "Uncle Gub" would be their CO, one Wing Commander A C Allen, known as "Gubby" after the famous Australian-born cricketer of that name who played against his homeland in the infamous "bodyline" tour of 1933/34; Borpop was a township on New Ireland, Piva North was their own airfield, and Comairsols was the American air commander who controlled all their activities (Commander, Air, Solomons). Don't think I need to explain purple heart, but such an American decoration could not be accepted by a member of the RNZAF as they had their own decoration to fill this need.
David D
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35 
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Post by aotea on Jun 14, 2015 0:55:14 GMT 12
... Is that writing or a name on the cowl over his left shoulder too? ... I had a look and enhanced it in photoshop Dave -it appears to be a cartoon animal's head -possibly a large dog or the Big Bad Wolf. I've searched popular cartoons from the 40's but can't find an exact match. Maybe someone else on the forum can recognise it  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 14, 2015 9:03:43 GMT 12
Fascinating. Great discovery! Rather than a dog this might actually be No. 24 Squadron's "Black Panther". The artwork was designed by squadron pilot Norm Rosser, who was from Cambridge. Here is a scan of their squadron notepaper's letterhead:  And he cloth patch they had made for flying suits:  There is certainly a similarity between the Black Panthers design and the Corsair nose art. Corsair NZ5447 was used by No. 24 (Black Panthers) Squadron from November 1944 (which makes sense as this was the tour Norm was on, and he'd designed the Black Panther logo on the 19th of October 1944 according to his diary). And NZ5447 was later used by No. 22 (Katipo) Squadron. So this must be that aircraft. There are lots of Corsairs in Norm's logbook in the lower to mid NZ54xx range but NZ5447 does not appear in it, although I guess this could be the C.O.'s aircraft with the logo on it, as it was the C.O. who'd called for the logo design back in October 1944. |
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zolteg
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 82
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Post by zolteg on Jun 14, 2015 13:46:28 GMT 12
Don't think I need to explain purple heart, but such an American decoration could not be accepted by a member of the RNZAF as they had their own decoration to fill this need. David D Didn't think we've ever had an equivalent version of the Purple Heart, have we? WWI had a wound stripe decoration, but I didn't think we ever had something as an equivalent.... |
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Post by davidd on Jun 15, 2015 14:15:27 GMT 12
The British-type gold wound stripes were also available to members of RNZAF as well as other armed forces in WW2 - Johnny Checketts was one such well-known recipient, but many wounded personnel did not bother to apply for them as they would probably rather forget such a painful period in their young lives! It was a type of award, and no doubt the applicant had to have sworn testimony before applying for it (well, usually the word of his CO was enough).
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 15, 2015 14:17:59 GMT 12
Yes the NZ Army in WWII gave wound stripes to those who were wounded in combat. I don't think they extended to everyday operations from natural causes rather than combat like the Purple Heart did.
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on Jun 18, 2015 2:21:41 GMT 12
Fascinating. Great discovery! Rather than a dog this might actually be No. 24 Squadron's "Black Panther". The artwork was designed by squadron pilot Norm Rosser, who was from Cambridge. Here is a scan of their squadron notepaper's letterhead: And he cloth patch they had made for flying suits: There is certainly a similarity between the Black Panthers design and the Corsair nose art. Corsair NZ5447 was used by No. 24 (Black Panthers) Squadron from November 1944 (which makes sense as this was the tour Norm was on, and he'd designed the Black Panther logo on the 19th of October 1944 according to his diary). And NZ5447 was later used by No. 22 (Katipo) Squadron. So this must be that aircraft. There are lots of Corsairs in Norm's logbook in the lower to mid NZ54xx range but NZ5447 does not appear in it, although I guess this could be the C.O.'s aircraft with the logo on it, as it was the C.O. who'd called for the logo design back in October 1944. This must be the design -the similarities are uncanny. I'm creating a skin for this particular aircraft (as always) so I had a couple of questions that you or another forum member may be able to answer: The background to the Katipo -My best guess based on the images is that it is the same yellow used in the outer ring of the fuselage roundels. Do you have any info contrary to this? Did the Panther and Katipo only appear on the port side? I also noticed that some squadrons placed an extra serial number on the forward starboard gear door (the shovel shaped part facing forward) -do you know if this practice was used throughout all the squadrons? My skin is nearing completion -just want to get the fine details correct if I can.  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 18, 2015 2:47:39 GMT 12
I'm afraid I don't know what the Katipo colours were.
Squadrons never painted or marked Corsairs, that would have been the Servicing Unit that did that, or the Corsair Assembly Unit perhaps. Not all Corsairs had the number on the wheel dive brakes, and No. 4 SU painted a letter code on the starboard dive brake rather than the last digit numbers of the serial (No. 4SU had also used letter codes for their P-40's as opposed to number codes on the cowls which were No. 2 SU aircraft).
Photos show No. 3 SU with the serial digits on the right dive brake in the Pacific, but when the same SU was at Ardmore they had letter codes on the port dive brake.
Nothing is seen on the dive brakes in photos of Corsairs belonging to No. 1 SU, No. 2 SU, No. 5 SU, No. 25 SU or No. 31 SU.
A later war photo of a No. 4 SU aircraft, NZ5610 in July/Aug 1945 it has 10 on the starboard dive brake.
I'd guess the artworks were only on the port side, at was the usual thing it seems. The only Corsair I recall with starboard-side artwork was Tutae Wera.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 18, 2015 2:48:01 GMT 12
Your digital artwork looks great by the way!
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