RNZAF Article XV Squadron Question

[alanw]

Hi all

Question on RNZAF Squadrons and
New Zealand goverment/Defense Force
involvement.

Take for example 488 Squadron formed
70 years ago last month here in New Zealand.

When 488 shipped off to Singapore, how much
influence in command decisions did the RNZAF High
command or Minister of Defence(at that time), have
over men and decisions made in running/Squadron
maintenance while they were in Singapore.

I'm well aware that 488 Squadron had Wilf Clousten
as the OC until he was seconded to RAF HQ in Singapore.

Obviously Wilf being a New Zealander serving in the RAF
was somewhat different to being in the RNZAF, and he
would have had to report to those in higher command
up the RAF chain.

But did home based decisions in New Zealand have any
affect on 488 Squadron's day to day running?

Would be interested to know

Thanks

Alan

[Tony]

Don't get me wrong here but:
My "impression" was that we supplied the Man-power. Qty whatever, RAF for the use of.
I could be wrong but I doubt it.

[alanw]

Oct 22, 2011 14:31:51 GMT 12 Tony said:

Don't get me wrong here but:
My "impression" was that we supplied the Man-power. Qty whatever, RAF for the use of.
I could be wrong but I doublt it.

Your Impression is quite correct, I was really more
interested to see if the RNZAF/New Zealand Government
had any input (what so ever) to the squadron's running.

My interest in this is , when 488 returned
from Singapore, a number of the remaining members
where formed into 14 Squadron, which was purely
RNZAF.
What were the mechanics of change/decision making
that affected a change from RAF operated to RNZAF.

I am aware that 488 squadron reformed in Britain
later in June 1942.
Hope my comments make some sense

Regards

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

It is interesting when you look into it, it seems 17 pilots from No. 488 Squadron RNZAF were in the initial formation period of No. 14 Squadron RNZAF at Masterton, and many of them were not there long before moving on to other units.

Alongside them at RNZAF Station Masterton were four survivors of No. 243 Squadron RAF, seven junior pilots straight from OTU, and eleven pilots who'd come from positions as instructors.

So whilst making up the biggest proportion of where pilots were sourced from, No. 488 Squadron pilots were actually in the minority as such within No. 14 Squadron despite the impression you might read about it being much the same squadron reformed.

By the time they moved to Whenuapai to prepare for overseas service there were only three actual ex-No. 488 Squadron pilots still on No. 14 Squadron, they were Peter Gifford, Jack Burton and Don Clow. Those three went overseas with No. 14 Squadron too, and Burton was killed.

I don't know exactly how many ex-488 Squadron groundcrew joined No. 14 Squadron at Masterton, but I suspect they will have been split out to provide experience to other units.

Alan, have a read of Graham Clayton's 'Last Stand in Singapore', it has everything you want to know about No. 488 Squadron I think.

[alanw]

Hi Dave

Thanks for that

I wasn't aware that there were other Singapore
survivors (of other squadrons) such as 243 Squadron
who made up 14 Squadron- most interesting

It's interesting to know 17 original 488 Squadron pilots
formed the nucleus of the new 14 Squadron, I guess their
combat experience was much too valuable to leave in one
pool at that stage, so logically, spread them around to other squadrons.

I too have Graham's book Last Stand in Singapore,
I'll have closer re-read.

One thing I have yet to discover (need to read some more)
is whether any of the original 488 (and now 243) Squadron,
were with 14 Squadron when they went to Japan as
part of J Force - seems some what ironic if they were.

Thanks/regards

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

I think the only original No. 14 Squadron member who went to Japan was Noel Hanna, who was one of the ex-OTU pilots when the squadron formed, and the squadron had been around a few months before he was posted to Masterton too I think. I can check that.

One of those No. 243 Squadron veterans was of course Geoff Fisken.

[Dave Homewood]

Yes, Noel Hanna arrived at Masterton and joined the squadron on the 11th of November 1942.

For your info the following ex-488 Squadron pilots served in No. 14 Squadron:

Sqn Ldr John Mackenzie - 25 April 1942 till July 1942 (First CO)
F/Lt John Hutcheson - 25 April 1942 - ? (First OC B Flight)
P/O Peter Gifford - 25 April 1942 - ?
P/O Walter Greenhalgh - 25 April 1942 - ? 1942
P/O John Godsiff - 25 April 1942 - 3 Sep 1942
Sgt Jack Burton - 25 April 1942 -
Sgt Don Clow - 25 April 1942 - ?
Sgt Walter De Maus - 25 April 1942 - 6 July 1942 (posted to Woodbourne)
Sgt Terry Honan - 25 April 1942 - October 1942
Sgt Percy Killick - 25 April 1942 - ?
Sgt Roderick McMillan - 25 April 1942 - ?
Sgt Vern Meaclem - 25 April 1942 - ?
Sgt Jack Meharry - 25 April 1942 - ?

Not sure of the ranks of the following four
Douglas Mingins - 25 April 1942 - 22 May 1942 (To. No. 2 GR Squadron)
Robert Greening - 25 April 1942 - 1 June 1942 (To. No. 8 GR Squadron)
John Hayes - 25 April 1942 - 22 May 1942 (To. No. 2 GR Squadron)
Wallace Honeyfield - 25 April 1942 - 1 June 1942 (To. No. 8 GR Squadron)

The Four who had served with No. 243 Squadron (which was largely wiped out in the Battle of Singapore by the way) were:
P/O Brian Stringer - 19 May 1942 - ?
Sgt Geoff Fisken - 19 May 1942 - ?
Sgt Arthur Greenslade - 19 May 1942 - ?
Sgt Rex Weber - 19 May 1942 - ?

[alanw]

Thanks for that information Dave

Much appreciated

Regards

Alan

[Tony]

Couple of good web sites regarding the Buffalo:

www.warbirdforum.com/malaya.htm

www.joebaugher.com/navy_fighters/f2a_7.html

[buffnut453]

Dave,

I'm intrigued by your comment that 243 Sqn "was largely wiped out in the battle for Singapore". From a total of 22 pilots who were officially part of the Sqn, 7 were either killed or MIA due to enemy action and a further 2 were killed in landing accidents. Two more were injured but survived, resulting in 50% non-effective strength in terms of pilots. These losses all occurred in Jan 42 and don't seem too dissimilar to the losses sustained by some units during the Battle of Britain. I hardly think the losses constitute the unit being wiped out - at full strength, 243 Sqn only had 12 IE and 4 IR aircraft. Although provision of reinforcements was a challenge (some did arrive), the key problems were the lack of a safe area, away from the front line, and a shortage of airframes to train these new pilots and get them combat ready.

Cheers,
Mark

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Mark, I have not actually looked at the stats and was going only by what two of the pilots, Geoff Fisken and Brian Baber told me independently, both remakrking that most in the squadron were killed. Maybe they were meaning subsequently in the war and not specifically in Singapore.

A third 243 pilot that i met was the late James Cranstone who went to India/Burma when Singapore fell, maybe other 243 men went there rather than NZ afterwards and the guys I talked to assumed they hadn't come home so must be dead?

Brian Baber arrived on the squadron just as the war began there, and so rather than get a green pilot straight from OTU to fly in combat they asssigned him to ferrying the damaged aircraft to the repair base and back. So he did fly 243 Squadron Buffaloes but mostly not in combat, he had closer calls on the ground including being personally strafed.

[buffnut453]

Unfortunately not even veterans are immune to the accepted wisdom that Buffalos were shot down in droves is pervasive. Greg Board is quoted in Martin Caidin's "Ragged, Rugged Warriors" that his squadron was wiped out when we know that 453 Sqn was actually still fighting right to the bitter end. Another "accepted" piece of tosh is that 21 Sqn was reduced to 4 aircraft after the first raids on Sungei Patani when, in reality, they still had 11 airframes available.

Of the 243 Sqn pilots who survived the battle for Singapore:

Sqn Ldr Howell - Captured when Singapore fell and became a POW
Flt Lt Mowbray Garden RAF - Survived the war
Flt Lt Ron Bows RAF
Flg Off M H Holder RAF - Killed in a flying accident in the UK
Plt Off E A Pevreal RAAF
Plt Off Gordon Bonham RNZAF
Plt Off T B Marra RNZAF - Survived the war
Plt Off J M Cranstone RNZAF - Survived the war
Sgt Rex Weber RNZAF - Survived the war
Sgt Bert Wipiti RNZAF
Sgt Max Greenslade RNZAF
Sgt Charlie Kronk RNZAF
Sgt C F Powell RAAF - Injured in the air fighting for Singapore
Sgt Geoffry Fisken RNZAF - Survived the war

[Dave Homewood]

Interesting. That shows me that pretty much they must have been talking about in the war, not just Singapore, there are not too many there who you mark as survived the war.

Where did Bert Wipiti go when he left Singapore? He ended up getting killed with No. 485 Squadron didn't he? But did he return to NZ first or did he head straight to the UK from Singapore?

You haven't got Brian Baber on that list but he was definately in the squadron, I have a photo of him and his Flight and Jim Cranstone and Geoff Fisken are both in the shot too. Also you haven't got Brian Stringer who apparently went to No. 14 Squadron from No. 243 Squadron. Any thoughts?

Apart from Brian Baber, are any other members of No. 243 Squadron (Singapore days) still alive now around the world?

[errolmartyn]

Updating Buffnut's listing:

Of the 243 Sqn pilots who survived the battle for Singapore:

Sqn Ldr Howell - Captured when Singapore fell and became a POW
Flt Lt Mowbray Garden RAF - Survived the war
Flt Lt Ron Bows RAF
Flg Off M H Holder RAF - Killed in a flying accident in the UK
Plt Off E A Pevreal RNZAF (not RAAF) - suvived the war
Plt Off Gordon Bonham RNZAF - suvived the war
Plt Off T B Marra RNZAF - Survived the war
Plt Off J M Cranstone RNZAF - Survived the war
Sgt Rex Weber RNZAF - Survived the war
Sgt Bert Wipiti RNZAF - +
Sgt Max Greenslade RNZAF - suvived the war
Sgt Charlie Kronk RNZAF - +
Sgt C F Powell RAAF - Injured in the air fighting for Singapore
Sgt Geoffry Fisken RNZAF - Survived the war

Errol

[Dave Homewood]

Here is that photo that I scanned from Brian Baber's collection.


On the back it reads:
Back Row L to R: John Oliver, F/Lt Bows, P/O Cranstone, Noel Rankin, Sgt Fisken
Middle: Vin Arthur, F/O Holder, P/O Marra, F/Sgt Mothersdale
Front: Allan Lawrence & Me

The 'Me' is Brian Baber. He's hardly changed a bit by the way,

[Dave Homewood]

I meant to add the letter of the Flight was smudged but it has a top stroke so can't be A Flight. I assume it was B Flight of No. 243 Squadron. F/Sgt Mothersdale looks quite old, was he groundstaff?

If anyone has further details on these chaps in the photo I'd be pleased to hear. I know the following after a bit of research:

Back Row:
Sgt John Benjamin Oliver RNZAF NZ402888 Killed in Action 15th of Jan 1942 in Buffalo W8183

F/Lt Ron Bows RAF

P/O James Mumford Cranstone 'Jim' RNZAF NZ405520 Died 7th of August 2010 Wanganui – Interviewed

Sgt Noel Bain Rankin RNZAF NZ404942 Killed 12 Jan 1942 in Buffalo W8234

Sgt Geoffrey Bryson Fisken 'Geoff' RNZAF NZ401556 Died 2011 Rotorua – Interviewed

Centre Row:
Sgt Vincent Arthur 'Vin' RNZAF NZ405519 Killed 22nd of January 1942 in Buffalo W8147/O

F/O Maurice Henry Holder RAF 44070

P/O Terrence Bernard Marra RNZAF NZ403467 Claimed one Ki27 on 16th of January 1942, Survived war

F/Sgt Tom Mothersdale RAF 562215 Died 27 June 1943 while POW of Japanese

Front Row:
Sgt Alan John Lawrence RNZAF NZ402195

Sgt Brian Kevin Baber RNZAF NZ402472 Lives in Auckland – Interviewed

[errolmartyn]

"F/Sgt Mothersdale looks quite old, was he groundstaff?"

Old but not ancient. His age at time of death on 27 Jun 43, according to the CWGC register, was 32.

Errol

[buffnut453]

I suspect we're considering 2 different Mothersdales. There was a FS G H Mothersdale who served on 243 Sqn as groundcrew. George Mothersdale survived the war and was a contributor to both "Bloody Shambles" and "Buffaloes Over Singapore'.

[Dave Homewood]

Maybe that's the case then Mark, as the chap in the photo looks a lot older than 32.

Regarding that photo, which i think of as a bit of a treasure as all three No. 243 Squadron chaps I have met and interviewed are in it, I recall when I vistied Geoff Fisken he had around 20 shots of No. 243 Squadron personnel like this one, all pretty informal, and all looked like box brownie type prints. At the time I didn't have a scanner with me and he was going to get his grandson to scan them for me but it never happened. I wonder if anyone else here might have scanned those same photos at all? I know Geoff was a popular chap with researchers so someone out there may have copies of them?

[pjw4118]

Two other survivors of RNZAF Singapore who I have put in Kiwis Do Fly are Keith Boles and Gearge Hitchcock. Neither pilot got any combat time in Singapore because of the lack of aircraft.
Keith was posted to 34 Sq and eventually got back to NZ and was remustered to the RAF. he finished as S/L DFC on 109 Sq OBOE equipped Pathfinder Mosquitos. Still going strong.
George got back to NZ then was posted onto 5Sq Singapores in Fiji. After lots of Pacific adventures and a US DFC he ended the war

as a Master Bomber on 635 PFF Sq with another DFC and MID. Post war George was a Professor of Pathology . We lost him two years ago.
There may be other ex Singapore RNZAF types still out there.