Navy's $500m ships may be unsuitable

[Dave Homewood]

www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/4847306a6479.html

Navy's $500m ships may be unsuitable for the job
HANK SCHOUTEN - The Dominion Post | Saturday, 14 February 2009

Some of the navy's new ships may be incapable of doing what they are required to do, Defence Minister Wayne Mapp says.

The delivery of six new patrol ships has been delayed by more than a year because of warranty problems, while a series of problems has plagued the new multi-role ship Canterbury, which was delivered in 2007.

Dr Mapp said problems with the Project Protector ships were being tackled separately in an effort to speed things up. He expected to make an announcement soon on the delivery date for four inshore patrol ships, which have been tied up in Whangarei.

Delays in getting the ships were affecting navy morale and overcoming the problems was a top priority, Dr Mapp said.

Contractor BAE Systems had recognised the original sea boats put on all ships were not suitable and agreed to replace all 14 Gemini rigid-hulled inflatable boats with $500,000 Zodiacs.

That effectively resolved all certification problems that had delayed the inshore patrol ships for the past year.

Dr Mapp said contractors were still working on problems with the Canterbury, including the placement of its boats and docking arrangements for its cargo-carrying barges. There were also weight problems with the $90 million offshore patrol craft.

It was possible the contractor might be unable to fix all the problems and some of the ships might never meet the contract specifications, Dr Mapp said.

The Canterbury might not be able to remain on patrol in storm-force-seven seas, as required.

The Defence Ministry would be looking for a financial settlement but Dr Mapp would not put a figure on potential compensation. The shipbuilding contract was worth $500 million.

Meanwhile, Dr Mapp was meeting his Australian counterpart Joel Fitzgibbon in Sydney yesterday for talks on defence ties and plans being worked on by both governments.

He is also flying to Poland, where ministers from 30 countries that have contributed forces to the International Stabilisation Force in Afghanistan are meeting.

New Zealand has 132 troops in Afghanistan, where a provincial reconstruction team has been deployed for the past six years. The Government is expected to announce an extension of that deployment, rather than offer more forces. "New Zealand is pretty heavily stretched already with deployments to East Timor and the Solomons. Our region will always take first priority."

[flycookie]

Me: From the Spencer Street Soviet. They're not frigates. If anything, they're corvettes. Read on.



www.theage.com.au/national/biggest-losers-nz-rejects-our-fat-frigates-20090502-aqur.html?page=-1



Biggest losers: NZ rejects our 'fat' frigates



Josh Gordon
May 3, 2009


NEW Zealand is claiming two Australian-built frigates are unseaworthy and refusing to accept the vessels, leaving them in limbo at the Williamstown docks.

Revelations about the dispute are embarrassing for Canberra, which has just announced a multibillion-dollar investment in naval shipbuilding as the centrepiece of a new defence white paper.

Shortcomings in the construction of the Otago and Wellington patrol vessels have also disrupted New Zealand's naval expansion, with its Defence Minister, Wayne Mapp, describing the project as "a mess".

Defence contractor BAE Systems, which inherited the deal to build the vessels after taking over defence builder Tenix last year, has confirmed to The Sunday Age that two patrol vessels ordered by New Zealand in 2004 have been rejected, and both parties are now locked in mediation.

The New Zealand Government is claiming that the vessels, each worth about $70 million, would be about 100 tonnes overweight and unable to sail in Antarctic waters, with insufficient allowance for extra equipment to be added.

"(The two vessels) are the subject of mediation between ourselves and the New Zealand Government," a BAE spokesman said.

"There are a range of issues that are yet to be settled before the customer will accept those vessels. We need to be comfortable that we are prepared to enter into an arrangement with them."

"So we are basically in negotiations and that's ongoing, but at this stage those vessels have not yet entered service."

Dr Mapp, who travelled to Melbourne in February for talks with BAE Systems, has described the project in the New Zealand media as "a mess which we are working hard to clean up". The vessels were among seven ordered as part of New Zealand's $400 million "Project Protector", all of which had been due at the end of 2007.

Of the seven vessels that had originally been ordered from Tenix, only one, the multi-role HMNZS Canterbury, is now in service, with four small patrol vessels due to become operational within weeks.

But even the Canterbury has been plagued by problems, with design flaws reportedly restricting operations.

The Royal New Zealand Navy has also been reported as saying the Gemini rigid-hulled inflatable boats that were to be supplied with all the ships do not meet requirements and is demanding Zodiacs instead.

The Otago and the Wellington were given sea trials last year, and the ships were said to be ready for delivery, but last November their crews of 70 were sent home while "contractual issues" were negotiated.

The BAE Systems spokesman said it remained unclear when the vessels would be delivered, because the dispute had yet to be resolved.

The biggest concern remains the weight of the ships. An ice protection belt, installed so the ships can be used in the Ross Sea, would sit below the waterline when extra weight was added for operational equipment and repairs.

It was critical that the ice belt sat on the waterline, especially as a build-up of ice on the ships would add extra weight, a Defence Ministry official said.

[Dave Homewood]

It beggars belief that something like this can happen.

Are the Otago and Wellington genuinely classed as frigates or is this media talk?

[flycookie]

I'd say it's just a journo and/or sub-editor's booboo due to unfamiliarity.

Not sure what RNZN actually styles Otago and Wellington as, but whatever idiotic PR-inspired classification they have to use, they are actually corvettes.

Nothing wrong with that - perfectly good class of warships and ideal for NZ in doing long range stuff where deploying a frigate would be silly, for any number of reasons.

[corsair67]

Well, isn't it good to know that the previous Labor Govt put all the money they saved by grounding the RNZAF's air combat wing to good use - by buying ships that aren't capable of doing the job required of them.

What a bloody joke.

[ErrolC]

May 5, 2009 10:38:45 GMT 12 @flycookie said:

I'd say it's just a journo and/or sub-editor's booboo due to unfamiliarity.

Not sure what RNZN actually styles Otago and Wellington as, but whatever idiotic PR-inspired classification they have to use, they are actually corvettes.

Nothing wrong with that - perfectly good class of warships and ideal for NZ in doing long range stuff where deploying a frigate would be silly, for any number of reasons.

I've always seen them referred to as Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPV), which seems appropriate. They only have a popgun and a heli pad, right? Corvette is a bit of a stretch IMO.

[John L]

May 5, 2009 11:02:00 GMT 12 ErrolC said:

I've always seen them referred to as Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPV), which seems appropriate. They only have a popgun and a heli pad, right? Corvette is a bit of a stretch IMO.

They are about the same size as a Corvette - which normally have a Popgun (what is it - a 76mm?) and a Heli pad. Traditional lines get a bit blurred at the small end of the scale, and , what is a Corvette but an offshore patrol vessel, anyway.....

[ErrolC]

May 5, 2009 17:44:55 GMT 12 John L said:

May 5, 2009 11:02:00 GMT 12 ErrolC said:

I've always seen them referred to as Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPV), which seems appropriate. They only have a popgun and a heli pad, right? Corvette is a bit of a stretch IMO.

They are about the same size as a Corvette - which normally have a Popgun (what is it - a 76mm?) and a Heli pad. Traditional lines get a bit blurred at the small end of the scale, and , what is a Corvette but an offshore patrol vessel, anyway.....

Just a 25mm Bushmaster and 50 cals (plus the stuff on the Seasprite). And I wonder how much stuff that goes bang they can carry for the heli in practice. I've always associated corvette to mean something with a bit more bite (in some form, AA, ASW, SuW, whatever), , but to each his own :-)

[30sqnatc]

The 25mm M242 is the same cannon as LAV so pretty soon they may have lots more to mount on the corvettes, of course after cannons have been mounted to our new AC-130's ;D.

And I bet you thought the Boeing side door was for cargo The low pass and steep climb out you see at airshows is actually the new attack profile

Paul

[ErrolC]

May 5, 2009 18:57:25 GMT 12 30sqnatc said:

The 25mm M242 is the same cannon as LAV so pretty soon they may have lots more to mount on the corvettes, of course after cannons have been mounted to our new AC-130's ;D.

And I bet you thought the Boeing side door was for cargo The low pass and steep climb out you see at airshows is actually the new attack profile

Paul

Heh heh
www.defensetech.org/archives/004828.html

"For less than the cost of an AC-130 gunship, the Corps plans to build for its fleet of KC-130J Super Hercules nine mission kits that will include an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance sensor, as well as three separate weapons systems, according to Marine Corps Maj. J.P. Pellegrino.
...
Plans call for a set of three weapon platforms: Four AGM-114 Hellfire laser-guided air-to-surface missiles, a Mk44 Bushmaster II 30mm cannon hung out the left paratroop door, or precision-guided munitions dropped from a lowered rear ramp."

[Kenny]

Well everyweekend when i drive past port the boats are stil there.. they look great but have been sitting there for at least a year.

Aussie Spending on Defence in this econmic period is a good idea.. even better had we done so and built most of our own boats. Im sure us kiwis could build on a better interislander and even put a decent sized weapon on it