WHAT?!?!

[luke6745]

"Cadets around New Zealand enjoy the thrilling adventures that are offered to them in all three of our Corps. Between Flying, Bushcraft, Snowcraft (in some cases), Sailing, Drill, Leadership courses, Outdoor courses, and many more, our cadets are learning lessons that will stay with them for life. But unfortunately, unit members aged 18 and over will soon be facing the end of their time as cadets.The New Zealand Cadet Forces has brought in a rule that will remove all 18+ aged persons from the cadet forces if they are below the rank of Under Officer (or equivalent). In some cases, units may stand to lose many cadets and even whole families and support committee members through issues with this ruling. We wish to oppose this ruling because this affects us directly, and it may affect you too. Sign today to keep our friends and family members in cadets going in New Zealand, no matter what age or rank!" - www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=245536035507824

I am totally astounded........

[Dave Homewood]

It is budget cuts. Perhaps if they promote all those who turn 18 to under officer the heirachy might get the message. The Ministry of Defence needs to sort this because so many of their recruits come through the NZ Cadet scheme, they need to be encouraging kids to join and stay, not casting the keen ones out.

[luke6745]

If they did it at my unit, we'd have no F/S's or a Warrant Officer.

[baronbeeza]

Haa, are you trying to say there are people aged 18 and over still behaving like school-kids.?

Wouldn't that be the last kind of leadership material the armed forces would be looking for ?

Most certainly did not happen in my day, we were all working by age 18.

It sounds like 'King of the shits' syndrome to me

[flyjoe180]

Who is to say they aren't working, baronbeeza? Who is to say that they didn't join until they were 16? Two years from Basic Cadet to Under Officer is a tall ask, not impossible but a steep gradient for sure. Back in your day were you still flogging people on gun carriage wheels?

[baronbeeza]

Actually it may have been a while ago, I don't remember under officers.

Many of us were working, several as Officer Cadets.
Pilots don't get to have names like Embryo, Foetus and similar by playing around with school kids.
Those guys had moved on, while still young they were well on their way to graduating as Officers.

I was thinking that at 18 you should be considering the 'real' military... not the 'Boy's Own' version.

[baronbeeza]

I had to do a quick read, I can see now it is not what I was thinking. Our highest rank at the time , at least in our Squadron, was F/S. He was a 6th Form Student and naturally the position was replaced often.

I don't trust Wikipedia generally.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_Officer

'''''''' To become an Under Officer, Cadets are required to:
Spend 6 months in the minimum rank of Staff Sergeant/Flight Sergeant
Have completed at least 3 years of Cadet Forces training
Be 18 Years of age
Have the desire, Committment & potential to become an NZCF Officer
have been recommended by their Unit Commander and have the approval of AC CFTSU ''''''

I see that more as a entry to an Cadet Forces commission rather than a senior cadet rank.

If the Wikipedia entry is correct, and the news article also, then it effectively wipes out that rank. At least the way it is structured at the moment.

What I had in mind was that guys that were serious about joining the RNZAF would have made the move before age 18.

Not many Officers I was in with would have come from senior ranks in the ATC.
Some had done ATC time and may have been NCO's. I am thinking Cpl or Sgt.

Do many under officers from the Cadet Forces go on to Commissions in the military ?
I really do think it must have been after my time.

[Dave Homewood]

The Air Force is not onlyabout pilots, and the ATC is not just there to just make pilots either. Many of the engineering staff I worked with had been snotgobblers, many of whom went onto the CET scheme and became officers through that. However being ex-ATC never guarantees that you're officer material, or even Air Force material for that matter.

[baronbeeza]

Thanks for that Dave. I know you were in the mob after my time but our experiences sound similar.

The engineering staff I knew very well. I must have seen the personal files of 200 to 300 Tech personnel of all ranks. I was surprised at the relatively small percentage that had mentioned an ATC background, - none had been of SNCO rank that i could recall.
I was thinking the same of an 18 year old under officer. It is possible the ranks have changed since the '80's but I did a CET type scheme and well into Year 3 subjects as an 18 yo.

I am not so sure about the Pilots. I would only be going by what they told me. I had known a few had been in the ATC but they did not talk much of it. One Skyhawk pilot had been on my JNCO course in the ATC. No others from that course joined the mob.

A few Pilots came from my hometown, - some had done some ATC time but just enough for an intro.
That seems to be the trend, a little is good, well perhaps in the eyes of the selection boards.

Staying in the ATC until the senior cadet ranks would appear to be more of a means to achieving an ATC commission.

I may be wrong but that would have been my experience.

Is it possible there have been fears that the NZCF has been getting too top heavy ?
If the report is correct it would not affect the RNZAF so much but may make the NZCF a little leaner.

[Dave Homewood]

Whatever the case is, our Government should be proud of the fact, and encouraging more of it, that so many teens are using their spare time outside of school/work to learn skills, life skills and discipline through the cadet forces, and pass those skills on to others younger than them. Cutting off the top tier will likely be a kick to morale and esprti de corps, and who knows where that might lead if these kids give up and drift away from the cadets? Surely the budget to keep cadets functioning fuly is not that much compared with that spent on youth crime, youth drug programmes, youth alcohol programmes, DPB, and all the other ambulances at the bottom of the cliff that come into play when teens are left to their own idle devices.

[shorty]

Beeza must be a bit of a sprog, three cadets I was in the ATC with were Rick Bulger (went onto Sunderlands and ended up as Air rank) Brian Lockie (went to 75 flying Vampires) and Mick Murray (Camnberra Nav when I was on 14 Sqn)
I was with the ATC until I was 20 and then joined the mob.As a result of what I learnt and instructed in the ATC I ended up being awatded awarded the Lawson Trophy at GSTS Wigram for the best all round recruit so it does have it's uses

[baronbeeza]

Yes, I may have been Shorty.

It may have just been the Squadron I was in. I can remember Jumbo B and Eek P joining up but they were well ahead of me. Eek would have been an ATC Cpl, possibly a Sgt.
Some joined from school even without ATC experience and yet the Squadron peaked while I was there.

CC Lee was the A4 Pilot but I only knew him from the JNCO course.
I did 15 months with a batch of RAF graduates who had recently been commissioned. In that time no-one ever mentioned having an ATC background. That would have been about 20 men.. I think many of them did time in University Air Squadrons, - perhaps that is the UK equivalent.

[Dave Homewood]

I recall that there were people in the RNZAF who did not widely reveal their previous life as a snotgobler ATC cadet, because of the drubbing such types got from the GSI's, and the non-snotgobbler types. As I have said before the ATC was not always popular on a base, eating all the food in the Mess, etc.

It's funny the rivalry really because those I joined with who had been in the ATC were most helpful to the rest of us at GSTS with things they were well versed in, passing on tips and techniques that the GSI's had only left to the imagination.

I recall right before our passing out parade our flight was getting hell from the GSI's, particularly Cpl Barbie Collins, for supposedly not being up to scratch, and we were threatened with the possibility of watching the other two flights pass out from the sidelines. Our major problem was our Marker was about 6 foot 8 and marched to his own beat and everyone behind him, including us 5'7" littlies, had no way of striding the way he did. So the weekend before the big crunch the entire Flight foregoed our Sunday off and assembled at the field by the gym at Woodbourne, and Air Force Cadet Mike Going who had been a W/O in the Whangarei ATC for a while, gave us an afternoon of drill instruction that was second to none, and by the end of that day we were all far better than the other two Flights. It was the techniques used to cajole our marker and a few others to do it right that worked I reckon, unlike the climate of fear that the GSI's loved to teach people in. I rememebr that day fondly, Mike did a great job. He went onto become a Squadron Leader (at least) engineering officer.

It was Mike and a few other ex-ATC who taught us the real tricks to polishing shoes and making good bedpacks too. Gawd knows why the ATC needed to know how to make bedpacks.

[baronbeeza]

Yep, I have to agree Dave. There would have been a lot of that in it. That is a great story about Mike teaching you guys and then going on to be a Sqdn Ldr.

I was hopeless at drill, it didn't interest me one bit. We were so bad that a Graduation parade was never mentioned, just a few quiet drinks will suffice. Thanks.

We did very little drill in the ATC also. It would have to have been the bare minimum....A quick line-up and roll call.
A few years ago we could watch the Christchurch ATC squadrons doing their evening parades, or rather hear them. They would be down by 3 Hangar and we could hear the yelling clearly at 5 hangar. It just didn't seem natural.

[phil]

Nov 23, 2011 21:26:06 GMT 12 luke6745 said:

"Cadets around New Zealand enjoy the thrilling adventures that are offered to them in all three of our Corps. Between Flying, Bushcraft, Snowcraft (in some cases), Sailing, Drill, Leadership courses, Outdoor courses, and many more, our cadets are learning lessons that will stay with them for life. But unfortunately, unit members aged 18 and over will soon be facing the end of their time as cadets.The New Zealand Cadet Forces has brought in a rule that will remove all 18+ aged persons from the cadet forces if they are below the rank of Under Officer (or equivalent). In some cases, units may stand to lose many cadets and even whole families and support committee members through issues with this ruling. We wish to oppose this ruling because this affects us directly, and it may affect you too. Sign today to keep our friends and family members in cadets going in New Zealand, no matter what age or rank!" - www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=245536035507824

I am totally astounded........

Your link doesn't work?

[luke6745]

I think the person that created the page took the page down. Probably got in trouble with their officers.

[davel]

I was talking to someone involved with the cadets here in Canada and I was told that something like 60% of the Canadian air force were in cadets at some point. Don't know how true it is but was interesting. The cadets here seem to have a much closer affiliation with the air force and also do alot more flying activities.

On the subject I think if you are still playing cadet NCO at 18 it's time to either move up or move on.

[Howe]

Actually luke i'm still 17 so our Sqn would still have at least one F/S

davel, what tends to happen at our unit is that the F/Sgts are usually NCOs in their last year of school (which means they're either 17 or 18) and they tend to either leave wellington at the end of the year to go to Uni ect or stay and become a U/O.

However, the thing about getting kicked out or promoted at 18yrs of age just wouldn't work at our unit because we already have way too many Under Officers and never enough F/Sgts

[luke6745]

Dec 2, 2011 17:19:38 GMT 12 Howe said:

Actually luke i'm still 17 so our Sqn would still have at least one F/S

I thought you were leaving though? haha

[davel]

My experience with 19 Squadron was that there were very few, if any Cadet NCOs over the age of 18. I was a flight sgt when I turned 18. At the end of that year I was promoted to UO but I left after that to go traveling. I did return to 19 later on a few times to take aviation lessons but purely as a civilian instructor. Also organised helicopter flights for cadets during their last flying camp.

I think ATC is great and more recognition needs to be given to the hard work of the many volunteers that make it happen. Geoff Dent is a prime example. He has been giving up his free time consistently for the last 30+ years. He does a fantastic job running one of the biggest squadrons in NZ (19)and also helping organise many large inter unit activities.