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Post by corsair67 on Apr 29, 2006 15:53:27 GMT 12
I'd always heard that P.O Lindsay had had a very close shave that day; but I didn't know things were quite that close!  I recall reading an article at the time which stated that he'd travelled through the smoke and flames of the exploding Strikemaster as the seat blasted him away from the crash. I've always wondered if this was true, or just another piece of creative writing by a journalist from the NZPA? Lucky for him that he was flying NZ6367 and not another unmodified Strikemaster then. I hope he bought himself a Golden Kiwi ticket the next day!  |
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Post by phil82 on Apr 29, 2006 16:09:45 GMT 12
The late Wg Cdr "Fearless" Fred Kinvig ejected from an A4 over Bulls, and landed in the same paddock as the aircraft. That's the seat in the Ohakea Museum.
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Post by aileronroll on Apr 29, 2006 16:51:38 GMT 12
I knew Fred Kinvig well, but had lost touch about 18 years ago. Would appreciate any information on when he passed away. As well as his A4 ejection he also bailed out of a Harvard following a mid air during his wings course..... the official story "we did not see each other"..........
Also known as "Friendly Fred", all round excellent pilot and great guy
RIP
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Post by phil82 on Apr 29, 2006 17:00:39 GMT 12
Yes, a very gentle man indeed was Fred, and a superb pilot. He was CO 14 for a term with the Canberra, then did a two-year stint on Phantoms with the USAF, and brought a left-hand drive Mustang back with him! He arranged an A4 ride for me when he when he was OC Ops at Ohakea, about the time of his ejection. I later spent some time with him in Wellington. A real gentleman, Fred died in Wellington probably about 9 or 10 years ago. His funeral was very private, and he never married. His A4 was downwind at Ohakea when the oil pump seized, and engine failed. |
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kevin
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by kevin on Oct 10, 2006 13:04:29 GMT 12
Well it seems that fatigue finally got the better of one of the Strikemasters, over here in Bathurst, with a mid-air de-winging. I looked at purchasing one of these a while back, but settled for a Jet Provost T Mk 5A instead. Even that had some problems with the wing spar, although nothing major.
I didn't realise that the guys operating the Strikemasters were pulling 5 G's in them. I did the best I could to avoid anyone pulling anything in my JP.
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Post by scurvy on Oct 10, 2006 14:29:47 GMT 12
I didn't realise that the guys operating the Strikemasters were pulling 5 G's in them. I did the best I could to avoid anyone pulling anything in my JP. It would be news to the operators that they were pulling 5G's as well! Where did you get the info that says these operators were pulling 5G's? That is plain wrong. The operator concerned has a strict +4G limit on all their stikemaster operations and CASA directives limit the type to maximum +4G. Having witnessed their operations first hand I can state this as a fact. I can also state catagorically that at no time are such loads imposed on the aircraft during the low level portion of their operations. Also, Ive seen quite a few posts jumping to the conclusion that the wing\mainspar fatigue issue is the cause of this accident. Its too easy to jump to that conclusion. We mustnt forget that at this stage its just as likely something else may have happened FIRST that THEN caused the aircraft to overstress the wing. I cant get a pilots license because of health reasons so Ive been a joyflight junky for 20 years. I been a passenger in whatever I can pay someone to take me up in. Ive never felt like I was in better, safer more professional hands that when I took a flight on one of these aircraft in May this year. I was made fully aware of the risks of the flight and signed the waiver without a qualm. And I will do the same tomorrow as long as one of those guys is in the pilot seat. As a paying passenger I want to keep the right I have to take an informed risk in flying in such aircraft. If I want to take a flight in an aircraft with a disabled bang seat flying over an unpopulated area then I believe as long as no-one else is put at risk apart from me and the pilot I should be free to do so. Oh you can say "still it started a nasty bushfire and tied up a bunch of emergency services for days" but the warbird business is by no means alone in this respect. Many outdoor sport and recreation activities tie up emergency services a heck of a lot more than this one and only fatal warbird aircraft accident in Aust. since 1993. No-one is forcing anyone to take these flights and the business is taken deadly serious by the owner\operators. Seeing careless comments, not only the 5g comment, in this and other supposed aviation enthusiasts forums regarding this accident really gets my goat. |
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 10, 2006 15:15:21 GMT 12
I agree with the sentiment that so long as someone is aware of the risks involved then they should be able to go and fly as a paying passenger in these aircraft. Unfortunately we live in a world where there's always someone looking to blame other people and/or the authorities whenever something goes wrong - especially if they can get a dollar or two out of it!
I dare say that once the accident report for this crash is released CASA will be taking another look at the rules and regulations governing the operation of these joyflight companies. I'd also hazard a guess that the warbird community in general will be nervous as to what may come out of all this too. Let's hope that commonsense prevails.
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kevin
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 7
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Post by kevin on Oct 11, 2006 11:12:54 GMT 12
OK. I'll retract the 5G comment and replace it with 4.9G. This is based on articles that until a day or two ago were available on the web. For example a search on Altavista returns the following: ---- Jet Fighter Flight, Low Level Strike Mission-Sydney, Williamtown ... Experience the rush of a flight in a Strikemaster jet fighter ... try and explain to someone what it felt like to have 4.9G's working against your body is impossible ... www.adrenalin.com.au/jet_fighter_flight_low_level_strike_m...liamtown_324_details.aspx More pages from adrenalin.com.au Jet Fighter Flight, Low Level Strike Mission - Sydney, Bathurst ... Experience the rush of a flight in a Strikemaster jet fighter ... try and explain to someone what it felt like to have 4.9G's working against your body is impossible ... www.adrenalin.com.au/jet_fighter_flight_low_level_strike_m...on_sydney_65_details.aspx More pages from adrenalin.com.au ---- Also, when I went to have a look at buying one of these Strikemasters I was told about the wing spar problem. The comment from the seller was just to 'Blend out' the cracks. I was also advised to remove the fatigue meter in order to extend the flying life of the aircraft. So you can be sure that I was a lot happier having family members flying about in the JP rather than the Strikemaster. Also I'm aware of many problems with the T4's,5's and Strikemasters over here. These include counterfeit parts, flying on time expired engines and depressurization at altitude. I'm in no way implying that these are current problems, only that they did exist in the past. In conclusion though, I think these are wonderful aircraft and a pleasure to fly and that great fun can be had without overly stressing an already ageing airframe. |
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 11, 2006 12:43:51 GMT 12
Kevin, were the Strikemasters you were looking at ex-RNZAF or ex-RSAF?
The RNZAF Strikemasters began to have serious problems with wing cracks in the early-mid 1980s and that is why the RNZAF purchased 6 sets of new wings from BAe. Apparently these were the last sets of new wings available anywhere in the world!
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kevin
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by kevin on Oct 11, 2006 13:17:09 GMT 12
The ones I looked at were ex-RNZAF. The ex-RSAF one was already in flying condition at the time and, I believe, in a lot better condition than the NZ ones. Hence the higher asking price.
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 11, 2006 13:54:41 GMT 12
Cheers for that Kevin. Can you recall how much they were flogging the ex-RNZAF ones off for at the time?
I've noticed that one of the re-winged ones (NZ6369) was actually written off in 1991 in a fatal crash near Taupo, so that means that at least one (maybe more) of the ex-RNZAF ones flying here are still on their original wings.
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Post by scurvy on Oct 11, 2006 14:59:05 GMT 12
OK. I'll retract the 5G comment and replace it with 4.9G. This is based on articles that until a day or two ago were available on the web. For example a search on Altavista returns the following: ---- Jet Fighter Flight, Low Level Strike Mission-Sydney, Williamtown ... Experience the rush of a flight in a Strikemaster jet fighter ... try and explain to someone what it felt like to have 4.9G's working against your body is impossible ... www.adrenalin.com.au/jet_fighter_flight_low_level_strike_m...liamtown_324_details.aspx More pages from adrenalin.com.au Jet Fighter Flight, Low Level Strike Mission - Sydney, Bathurst ... Experience the rush of a flight in a Strikemaster jet fighter ... try and explain to someone what it felt like to have 4.9G's working against your body is impossible ... www.adrenalin.com.au/jet_fighter_flight_low_level_strike_m...on_sydney_65_details.aspx More pages from adrenalin.com.au ---- I dont want to be a pain but I will re-iterate the facts as I witnessed them - JetFighterFlights did have a 4G limits on all their operations. When I flew with them not at any moment did we exceed 4G. I know its possibly nitpicking but a G is a G. At the company we are talking about www.jetfighterflights.com/html/s01_home/home.asp?tnid=home&dsb=9there is no mention of 4.9G. I cant see the web links in your post but it looks like part of a customer testimonial or sales blurb written by third party. There been a lot of misinformation written on the net since thursday so I wanted to clarify at least this one. Its not a good time to talk about the operations of this company for at the very least they are unable to defend themselves against the rubbish has been written about them over the last few days. There have been some really disrespectful cheap shots pointed at the company and its owner on some other forums here in Australia. This 4.9 G one is a minor furfy compared to what has been written over here, mainly by their competitors. Like I said, low, cheap shots. Andy |
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Post by Calum on Oct 11, 2006 15:17:09 GMT 12
Also, when I went to have a look at buying one of these Strikemasters I was told about the wing spar problem. The comment from the seller was just to 'Blend out' the cracks. I was also advised to remove the fatigue meter in order to extend the flying life of the aircraft. That advice borders on criminal...... I worked on the RNZAF Strkemasters and rememebr the wing cracks. These were cracks in a major structural component. You just don't "blend" them out. As for removing the fatigue meter . I'm sure CASA would be happy with that  When I worked on the Blunty 10 of the aircraft were 4.5 G limited, the other 5 were 5.5 G limited. From memory the first 10 NZ6361-NZ6370)were 4.5G limited, the last 5 (NZ6371-NZ6375) were 5.5 G limited. The aircraft had holes drilled in the wings (about 10mm in diameter) so the propogation of the cracks could eb cehcked. The wing cracking is the main reason why the Blunty was gotten rid of. |
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 11, 2006 15:25:02 GMT 12
Calum, why was wing cracking such an issue with the Strikemasters in RNZAF service?
Some of those airframes (NZ6371-NZ6376) would have been less than 10 years old when the cracking first became an issue.
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kevin
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by kevin on Oct 11, 2006 15:43:22 GMT 12
Can you recall how much they were flogging the ex-RNZAF ones off for at the time? I believe that they were originally $200,000 but were reduced to $100,000. As far as I can remember the Singapore AF Strikemaster was selling at $250,000. In the end Nick Costin worked some deal that he would rebuild and operate them. But this was about the time that I was leaving the scene, so I don't know too much of the story after that. |
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kevin
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by kevin on Oct 11, 2006 15:49:30 GMT 12
Calum, why was wing cracking such an issue with the Strikemasters in RNZAF service? It's educational to stick a camera into the wings. I don't know if my aircraft was indicative of the level of workmanship, but you could see where the drill had slipped on some of the wing components. My Provost had been the lead aircraft for the Red Pelicans in the UK and had lived a fairly stressed life during that time. As such it did have problems with the wings. In this instance, though, they had titanium 'doubler' plates riveted over the damaged areas. |
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 11, 2006 15:50:24 GMT 12
Cheers for that, Kevin.
Sounds like you certainly did the right thing by going with a Jet Provost in the end.
Do you still own it?
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kevin
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 7
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Post by kevin on Oct 11, 2006 17:31:47 GMT 12
Sounds like you certainly did the right thing by going with a Jet Provost in the end. Do you still own it? No, I sold it 6 years ago. The guy that has it now also has a Gnat, which should be up and running sometime in the next 12 months. There's a picture of the Provost, taken after I sold it, here: www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0145572It's probably worth noting that it's very much the same as the Strikemaster. It had the same hard points under the wings and machine gun mounts under the intakes. |
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Post by corsair67 on Oct 11, 2006 17:39:54 GMT 12
Ah, British Engineering! ;D But the Jet Provost looks naked without the wingtip tanks. |
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Post by Citabria on Oct 12, 2006 6:24:46 GMT 12
Just a quick one.... what were the rolling 'G' limits? Without speculating too much, depending on the fracture point I would think that this would point more toward a rolling failure as from what I hear only one wing came apart.
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