|
|
Post by steve on Oct 29, 2005 1:47:17 GMT 12
Good decision to purchase...true...but how many 8,10 12
my guess 8....
12 would be my choice if only to fill the gaps at ohakea...
the old story ...no votes in defence spending at least in this country!
|
|
|
|
Post by Bruce on Oct 29, 2005 21:23:41 GMT 12
traditionally the NZ army has deployed overseas in battalions of about 300 soldiers. The NH90 carries 14 troops in full kit, so to deploy this number in one lift would be approx 20 helicopters. In practice they often use multiple heli lifts, so 7-10 would be a realistic deployment. To allow for maintenance and unserviceability, 12 to 14 aircraft, 1 full squadron, would be the ideal number. However, we do not have enough transport aircraft or ships capable of carrying 10 NH90s, and we are short of about 2000 troops, so it could be anyones guess - perhaps 105 - like the LAVIIIs!
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 29, 2005 21:36:25 GMT 12
Well, as far as overseas deployment with troops goes i think they only actually send around 3 or 4. Places like Timor and Bougainville had detachments, but certainly not in the realms of 7-10 choppers as you mention. What with maintenance and use throughout NZ (don't forget the South Island has a detachment) there's not enough choppers to go around. Personally I think it would be hghly astute to spend a bit more and buy enough to equip two squadrons, one for the North Island (at Ohakea, near Trentham and Waiouru) and one in the South Island (at Christchurch, near Burnham and mountain rescue). Plus a couple of attrition aircraft. The helicopter is used so much more today than 1965 when we purchased the Iroquois, and the need to have decent sized squadrons in each island is, I feel, important.
However I'll wager they'll only buy half as many as they're replacing, like with the frigates...
|
|
|
|
Post by Calum on Oct 30, 2005 19:25:20 GMT 12
traditionally the NZ army has deployed overseas in battalions of about 300 soldiers. The NH90 carries 14 troops in full kit, so to deploy this number in one lift would be approx 20 helicopters. In practice they often use multiple heli lifts, so 7-10 would be a realistic deployment. To allow for maintenance and unserviceability, 12 to 14 aircraft, 1 full squadron, would be the ideal number. However, we do not have enough transport aircraft or ships capable of carrying 10 NH90s, and we are short of about 2000 troops, so it could be anyones guess - perhaps 105 - like the LAVIIIs! The RNZAF don't have any aircraft capable of carrying the NH-90. and this a problem. One advantage of the a Huey sized airframe is the ability to chuck it in the back of a Herc and head off in a day or so. No way this can happen now (Aussie have realised this as well). 8 airframes just ins't enough IMHO, 12 is the minimum for a crediable force, As Bruce said above this should give 8-9 airframes on the line Hopefully the training/utility helo will be on the larger size so this important capability isn't lost. Personally I think they should contract out training to Civy company. (disclaimer The Company I work for is bidding for a this type of contract to replace the RAN Squirrels)  |
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Oct 31, 2005 13:15:22 GMT 12
Great, so the RNZAF are getting a helicopter that they can't deploy anywhere outside of NZ; which is a laugh, because when the ACW was disbanded, Comrade Helen and Co were harping on that they would be buying new helicopters for peacekeeping and overseas aid deployments! Australia can send their NH90 overseas onboard the HMAS Manoora and HMAS Kanimbla if necessary; maybe Helen is expecting Australia to help out - again?  Dave, I don't think there are any Iroquois permanently based in the South Island anymore, because the mountain rescue capability has been taken over by the civilian rescue helicopters. No one cares about the South Island....sniff, sob, sob, sniff! Wasn't there talk of secondhand Squirrels being procured for the training role in the RNZAF? Maybe they could have the RAN ones when they are retired? Just look out for cracked tailbooms from shipboard ops! |
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 31, 2005 19:55:09 GMT 12
Actually the RNZN has a new transport ship on order which could take a few choppers if necessary I'd think. It's a troop carrier and cargo ship so should be able to deploy helos.
Also they've already said we can hire/borrow/lease or whatever the US big planes for UN deployment. This was done just a few months ago, with a couple of Globemasters flying into Whenuapai to take a load of grunts off to the middle east or somewhere.
In the latest Pacific Wings is a photo of an Iroquois which states was on a detachment in Canterbury. Maybe it's not a permanent thing any more, but they still go down for use at Burnham and other stuff like police work i suppose. Originally when Wigram was to close the plan was to keep 3 Det there with the museum. But that was changed.
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Oct 31, 2005 20:16:01 GMT 12
God: I hope you don't get another Charles Upham fiasco this time around! Australia and NZ should get some Globemasters to share: would be a great capability to have for both countries, but alas it would never happen. Imagine the Kiwi on one side of the fuselage/wing and a Kangaroo on the other, and the arguments about who gets which side of the fuselage!
The problem with relying on someone like the Yanks to fly your troops and equipment around is that they will only do it when it suits them e.g. they needed the Kiwis to deployed to Afghanistan, so they would do anything to make sure you got there okay. Could be a different story if they didn't agree with where you wanted to go for political reasons or whatever.
I gather that the Iroquois are deployed down to Burnham every now and again to keep the grunts familiar with how to climb in and out of helicopters safely. 3 Det was based at Harewood for a while when Wigram ceased to be an air base (to become part of Ngai Tahu's 'sacred' real estate portfolio!). I think the Iroquois came to Burnham in June to play war with the Army for a week or so, just after I flew back to Oz?
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 31, 2005 20:51:58 GMT 12
There is also the option of civil lease freighters, like those massive Ilushyn things that used to operate from Mangere. I think we'd be able to rely on the Russians if the Americans let us down.
Such a sizeable aircraft is simply impractical for the RNZAF to own permanently. It could never land in the Pacific Iaslands and on most NZ strips, unlike the Hercules which can go almost anywhere. I could certainly see Aussie investing in some Globemasters though, the RAF has them now too I understand.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bruce on Oct 31, 2005 21:21:39 GMT 12
The RAF C17s are interim equipment until the much delayed, but extremely capable (and more realistic for NZ) Airbus A400M enters service. I think that would be the ideal Herk Replacement. Therefore how many "Herk replacements" may be determined by how many NH-90s...... We must get our own transports - I cant see the "Lease" thing working - how many civil pilots would want to go to somewhere like somalia and get shot at? the Yanks couldnt care less about those humanitarian type crisises so I dont think theyd leap to our assitance - even if Winston asked nicely. |
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Nov 1, 2005 8:58:46 GMT 12
Australia has recently found that it's heavy lift capability is not up to the task at hand of supporting contingents (especially the 75 Sqdn Hornet deployment to the Middle East in 2003) in Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as supporting humanitarian missions in the local region. Many analysts think they need to look at something along the line of Globemasters-sized transports, as the leasing of private transports (such as Russian owned/operated aircraft) is not always feasible, has many insurance implications (how many insurance companies would be happy to have a civil aircraft carrying munitions to troops in a war zone???), can be quite expensive, and some of the aircraft are not always very safe/well maintained either!  The October-December edition of AERO magazine has a very good article on this issue, and it's interesting to read that the RAF budgeted to operate their four C-17s for 3000 hours/annum between them, but in reality they have been logging 7000/annum up to 2003, and a whopping 9800/hours in 2004. The RAF are also intending to purchase the four C-17s (plus another one) at the end of their lease in 2008. Once you have the capability, you use it! |
|
|
|
Post by Calum on Nov 4, 2005 20:56:56 GMT 12
Actually the RNZN has a new transport ship on order which could take a few choppers if necessary I'd think. It's a troop carrier and cargo ship so should be able to deploy helos. Also they've already said we can hire/borrow/lease or whatever the US big planes for UN deployment. This was done just a few months ago, with a couple of Globemasters flying into Whenuapai to take a load of grunts off to the middle east or somewhere. . SAS guys to Afghanistan. But borrowing C-17's isn't always an option. particulalry as the US isn't always on the same page as NZ Hiring Civy heavylift is also fraught with danger as these aren't always available in a timely manner |
|
|
|
Post by dpdouglas on Dec 18, 2005 18:04:14 GMT 12
Ah Yes the C-17 Globemaster and the all so not so famous NH90 Helicoptor. recently the U.S Air Force Had to make a landing at RNZAF Base Auckland. this was a suprising look as we entered the base at Whenuapai. the next parade night the Globemaster had disappeared some where. the next week it had returned only to our suprise was a convoy of Vehicles exiting the Aircraft.
|
|
|
|
Post by Phil on Jan 23, 2006 18:20:23 GMT 12
Remember that we do need as many NH90s as we have Iro. The light helicopter we get will be much more capable than the Sioux and will pick up the Sioux role, and the lighter end of the Iro role. Certainly the SAR and police work will most likely be done with the light hellicopter (it will probably have a winch for example).
The NH 90 will pick up the heavy end of the Iro role and then some.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 23, 2006 19:09:27 GMT 12
Good point there Phil.
How far away is the light helicopter replaement decision I wonder. I'm surprised the Sioux has lasted so long in service. Amazing really, virtually WWII technology.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Smith on Jan 23, 2006 20:34:34 GMT 12
This is not my real name...
The No1 "A" Class rumour doing the the rounds at the moment is that the contract for the NH90s is not going to be signed, as NZ can not afford the minimum choppers reqd. Even at the Min (I do not know the qty), the contract will be 100M over budget, and that does not include the sioux replacements, which I understand are to be included in the same budget, or any of the nice to have's that "hang off" the NH90.....
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Jan 23, 2006 20:42:14 GMT 12
You know it wouldn't surprise me at all if this turns out to be true. So what are they going to do now: refurb. the Iroqouis and keep them flying another 40 years? Incidentally, how much Foreign Aid did Helen give away last year? Probably enough to buy 40 new helicopters for the RNZAF!  |
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 23, 2006 20:49:40 GMT 12
Great, and with a massive economic slump on its way, that'll be another factor.
(Oh and, for a second there, I thought we had the John Smith, legendary aircraft collector, on the forum. But I understand the suedonym)
|
|
|
|
Post by John Smith on Jan 23, 2006 20:55:41 GMT 12
This is still not my real name.
I understand money is getting a bit tight... despite the $1 BIL that the govt just gave us...
With things like Project Protector (Navy), the C130 / 757 / P3 upgrades, the NH90, and the Whenupai move, as well as the JLSO, the money is getting thiner.... The class 2 rumour is that they are going to retender the UH1H replacement, and make the tender specs such, that "lesser" helecopters can now tender....
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Jan 23, 2006 21:02:16 GMT 12
And what types would fit into the "lesser" category -
R22?
Gyrocopters?
|
|
|
|
Post by Calum on Jan 23, 2006 21:41:46 GMT 12
UH-1Y? (would be a good choice IMHO) Super Pumas (although I don't they are made now)
|
|
