Loss of ATC contact (RNZAF interception)

[tfly]

Standard practice in Europe if a civilian airliner loses contact with ATC is for a fast jet to be dispatched to investigate/establish contact (and I guess as a last resort shoot down the target if it is deemed a terrorist threat?)

With that in mind what would happen in NZ nowdays with the Strike Force eliminated?

[baronbeeza]

I don't know if the RNZAF was ever in the game of shooting down airliners.
You guys may live in a different world.

Loss of contact would not be the end of the world either, unless of course we had several aircraft all lose the radios at the same time.

I am sure the airliner would land in time to watch the rugby somewhere.

[ngatimozart]

Well there is a P40 that has 6 x .50 cals that I saw firing at Warbirds Over Wanaka in 2008. I'm sure they wouldn't mind the fee for service

[phil]

I doubt we ever had the capability to scramble jets for that sort of thing, we didn't have a QRA, in fact it would have taken quite some time to get an armed aircraft in the air, as the weapons would have had to be built up and brought up to the flightline.

[baronbeeza]

Do any squadrons in the RAF still have QRA ? Waddington had the Vulcans back in the day.

It was the only thing that saved Spencer Flack's life when he put G-FURY in short at Waddington on a Sunday afternoon.

Do the RAAF have a QRA ? I very much doubt it.

[Hoffy]

1999 , just before East Timor , we had F111 aircraft bombed up in Darwin and waiting for an order to strike Jakarta(comms) if there had been any detected threat by the Indon Air Force(or others) to attempt to attack the INTERFET operation about to land in Dilli etc.
At the time the Indonesians were pre-warned that any provocative military action would seriously escalate things.

[beagle]

we would get a Dakota up towing a banner, telling them they were out of contact.

[baronbeeza]

Beagle


Wasn't there a story about the Chinese F-8 pilot that clipped the wing of the EP-3 about ten years ago. During an earlier intercept he
had waved a board with a message at them.

I don't think it was Yankee go home.. I thought the message was his email address.

Loss of comms. Hmm these days you would drag the cell phone out. (But don't tell the pax down the back.)


I am glad I am not living in Europe any-more. Get too close to France and they would shoot you down...

It is only about 30 NM from Gatwick also.

[30sqnatc]

We would have Sqn Ldr (Honorary) Sir (declined) R. Mcaw in his glider airbourne in a flash ready to ruck the plane off any nasty

[Darren Masters]

Probably borrow some Australian Super Hornets

[raymond]

Of course NZ never had a QRF, this is the country that only locks the stable after the horse has bolted! I recall often hearing "we have not needed to do that over the last 40 years" so ....Of course this is still occuring!

[baronbeeza]

The RNZAF used to have all kinds of crews on standby, generally helicopter and SAR crews. This would include aircrew and ground crew in order to get the aircraft away. I can recall 2 hour standby but there may have been something more urgent.
This would include the F-27 crews even who were available for SAR and medi-vac duties.

In the UK some aircraft were bombed up, crew on-board and sitting near the end of the runway. From memory they did two hour shifts, at least the Vulcans did.
The intercept aircraft would have had a similar arrangement.
The QRA duties would not have been very pleasant and I am sure the crews would be pleased to see the end of it.

I cannot recall ever seeing the RNZAF strike equivalent of the 2 hour standby. Indeed even when the UFO's visited in the late '70's it would have been difficult getting a strike aircraft down to check them out. Was an intercept ever carried out ?

NZ is a relatively small country with a very small out of hours airspace. Basically Christchurch up to Auckland. Freight aircraft ply their trade throughout the night and they would be be able to assist.
Actually it was one of the night freight aircraft that spotted the threat off Kaikoura, just a shame that the Argosy couldn't get up to Mach 6 fast enough.

We don't get so many hi-jackings or terrorist threats in this part of the world.
As for the extra-terrestrial threat, - well then we would need a rather slick interceptor also.

[Dave Homewood]

You are right there Kevin, the RNZAF had duty crews ready for quick despatch of aircraft when i was in too, for SAR work, etc. I'm sure they must still do so?

In WWII they also had aircraft armed and ready to take on any threat that came up. They were seldom used but there were indeed scrambles. Most were false alarms.

I can think of only two hijackings in NZ history, one of which was an Air New Zealand plane in Fiji and the crew smacked the guy with a wine bottle. The other was that African nutter a few years back.

[dumbas]

Tfly,

Even if the strike force still existed, the chances are there would be very little they could do.

What authorities fear are larger aircraft with a "few half m v squares" being hijacked and used as a weapon. That would imply a wide bodied jet. Most wide body jets approach NZ from the North of Ohakea and typically head towards to AKL. Whilst these jets are in contact with ATC via HF or CPDLC (sat based com system), concerns would not be raised until radar contact was established and no VHF response was received. To keep the math easy, that would be at about 240 miles out. A wide body typically does 8 miles a minute, so 30 minutes exists to establish the aircraft is a threat and launch a fighter out of Ohakea. I am not sure how long it takes for an armed A4 to get to FL350+ and intercept an aircraft inbound to AKL, but I would suggest it would be more than 30 mins.

All of the above presupposes that Ohakea is open and the pesky hijackers don't do the nasty deed at 6 am on a Sunday morning!

Comparisons with Europe are a bit unfair. I seem to recall one of the French interceptions was by aircraft already in the air over the Bay of Biscay. When the RAF held the nuclear deterrent, it was a massive drain on resources (it made owning 4 Nuclear subs seem easy). The RAF Air Defence Quick Reaction Alert " QRA" was passed around the squadrons to lessen the burden and ISTR the RAF maintained about 5 bases 24/7 to act as Military Emergency Diversions, in case a Q aircraft needed a diversion.

It is not as simple as having a few guys on call.

[zkarj]

The RAF still have QRA. There's an article in the latest Air International describing a deployment of 6SQN Typhoons to Malaysia and it mentions how they had to maintain QRA with the folks left behind.

[dumbas]

Zkarj,

I am not sure how up to date this wikipedia entry is, but the RAF traditionally had 2 QRAs, North and South. To support these aircraft an Air Tanker would be on Standby and I am guessing a SAR Nimrod as well. I am not sure how the RAF presently maintain long range SAR for the QRA aircraft, now that the Nimrod has been retired. Possibly the French provided SAR cover

Added to all this, I imagine the entire Air Defence Radar/Coms system runs 24/7. I am guessing this system can call on AWACs and ships if needs be.

From wikipedia;

In January 2000 the RAF was restructured and the Group took on its present role. The Group is responsible for UK air defence operations through QRA North at RAF Leuchars and QRA South at RAF Coningsby. However since the disestablishment of Combined Air Operations Centre 9 at RAF High Wycombe, actual control of the fighters is now carried out from a NATO Combined Air Operations Centre in Denmark, CAOC 1 at Finderup. However, High Wycombe retains an air defence direction capability, and the UK Representative there could take back control over QRA South if it was necessary to respond to a terrorist threat from the air.[3]

[mumbles]

Jan 21, 2012 16:28:40 GMT 12 baronbeeza said:

Do any squadrons in the RAF still have QRA ? Waddington had the Vulcans back in the day.

RAF V-Force (Valiant, Victor and Vulcan) strategic nuclear QRA in the UK ceased in 1969 when the Polaris missile submarines took over the responsibility. The Vulcans retained a tactical nuclear mission until retirement/replacement by the Tornado in the 1980's.

Nuclear armed QRA in RAF Germany was kept up until the end of the cold-war in 1989/90.

Fighter QRA in the UK I don't think has ever ceased entirely. It recently got back into the limelight a bit when the Russians resumed Bear patrols, just like the bad old days.

[baronbeeza]

Thanks Mumbles, I knew the end of the cold war would have been a factor. It was full on when I was there, but then again so was the IRA threat.

Spencer Flack was returning from an airshow Humberside when he suffered catastrophic engine failure. I saw him prepare for take-off and they had been concerned under the cowls.
A few hours later I saw the wreckage of the Fury just short of the runway at Waddington.
I think he had tried to stretch the glide and gone in hard , the Fury started burning also.
It was a Sunday afternoon and because Waddington was a QRA base the emergency crews were on the scene within minutes.

A very fortunate choice of airfields for him in a way. That would have been about late July or into August of 1981. I believe he put his fleet up for sale after that.

[richard1098]

Jan 21, 2012 16:28:40 GMT 12 baronbeeza said:

Do the RAAF have a QRA ? I very much doubt it.

In addition to the F-111s, the RAAF also had 75 squadron F-18s at Tindal ready to support the Interfet operation had they been needed.

[baronbeeza]

That sounds just like an operational readiness. The RAF had four levels of readiness for each Station I remember. It changed during my time, at least twice we went on to a higher state of alert due the IRA bombing threat. It was pretty well full on when Bobby Sands was dying.
The QRA at Waddington was a NATO requirement and was every minute of the day, every day of the week, etc, etc...In the early days it was strategic but later on became more tactical.
I was led to believe that the aircraft were armed and crewed ready to go. They certainly sat near the holding point at the end of the runway.
I was never made aware of the target but I suspect that the crews were on a one-way mission. I understand that even if they did return the Station would not be the same.
All part of the NATO game-plan... they didn't seem to want to discuss it with everyone.