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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 28, 2012 19:56:30 GMT 12
Cheers.
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Post by errolmartyn on Feb 28, 2012 20:56:16 GMT 12
Hi, My grandfather was on Emirau in 5 SU & 10 SU in 1944 & 1945 - Charles "Chic" Elsmore - he kept dairies which we have...can you please message me your dads first name? Thanks Rachel Rachel, NZ414063 Charles Edwin Elsmore enlisted at Harewood as a Radio Mechanic on 18 July 1941. On 20 January 1942 he embarked at Wellington on the President Grant for Los Angeles on the first part of his journey to the UK and attachment there to the RAF, where he would have most likely ben engaged on radar duties. There was also a C. E. Elsmore who served as a member of the Wellington Territorial Squadron in 1939 and was issued with service number 439046 (no 'NZ' prefix in those pre-war days). I presume that both were one and the same man. If correct, I don't suppose that his diaries also cover his time with the Territorial Air Force? Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 28, 2012 21:08:00 GMT 12
'Chic' Elsmore was the latter of your two Errol, NZ439046. He served as Firecrew with the Wellington (General Reconnaissance) Squadron (not the Territorial Squadron I don't believe as he joined after the war began, at Blenheim). Rachel tells me he stayed at Woodbourne as fire crew, then seems to have gone to Ohakea for a fire course in 1941. He went to the Pacific with 5SU and then to 10SU.
His brother was George Edwin Elsmore NZ439029, who also joined the Wellington (General Reconnaissance) Squadron at Blenheim and it seems became an Armourer, and later served with Corsairs in a different Servicing Unit than Chic.
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tc64
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 90
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Post by tc64 on Feb 28, 2012 21:40:35 GMT 12
I love the way these stories unravel ;D
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Post by errolmartyn on Feb 29, 2012 10:21:29 GMT 12
'Chic' Elsmore was the latter of your two Errol, NZ439046. He served as Firecrew with the Wellington (General Reconnaissance) Squadron (not the Territorial Squadron I don't believe as he joined after the war began, at Blenheim). Rachel tells me he stayed at Woodbourne as fire crew, then seems to have gone to Ohakea for a fire course in 1941. He went to the Pacific with 5SU and then to 10SU. His brother was George Edwin Elsmore NZ439029, who also joined the Wellington (General Reconnaissance) Squadron at Blenheim and it seems became an Armourer, and later served with Corsairs in a different Servicing Unit than Chic. Thanks Dave. Chic must have been discharged at some point and later re-enlisted, given that he has two service numbers? George must have remained in the RNZAF post-war, as he was renumbered 70536 in January 1949. Errol
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chicgd
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by chicgd on Feb 29, 2012 19:13:40 GMT 12
Hi! Okay, this is what I have on Chic:
Enlisted RNZAF 6th September 1939 at Woodbourne Trade: Fire Crew (private) Discharged 23rd November 1945 with rank of Corporal
29/7/45: Was in 5 SU and moved to 10 SU
Unsure on further details on George until I catch up with the family. Hope to start of post over next couple of days with photos etc.
His close friend on the island was Ces Knightingale - does anyone know if he is still with us?
Rachel
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 29, 2012 20:41:16 GMT 12
Tere are several C. Knightingales in the white pages directory. You might have to ring them all and see if you are in luck.
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Post by errolmartyn on Feb 29, 2012 21:22:57 GMT 12
. His close friend on the island was Ces Knightingale - does anyone know if he is still with us? Rachel This will have been NZ4216196 Cial [but typo in routine orders?] Alister Nightingale, who enlisted at Woodbourne as an ACH (AD) on 5 December 1942. Cecil Alister Nightingale died on 5 August 1988 and is buried at Oamaru. His given age of 76 at time of death matches his 1912 birthdate in routine orders. Errol
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Post by errolmartyn on Feb 29, 2012 21:33:40 GMT 12
Hi! Okay, this is what I have on Chic: Enlisted RNZAF 6th September 1939 at Woodbourne Trade: Fire Crew (private) Discharged 23rd November 1945 with rank of Corporal Rachel This does not tie in with his service numbers, 439046 indicates that he joined the Territorial Air Force prior to the outbreak of war, while NZ414063 was, as mentioned before, allotted to him on enlistment or re-enlistment 18 July 1941. The 6 September 1939 date may be the date that he was mobilised while still with the TAF, though if so it would appear that he later remustered from Fire Crew (though the mention of 'private' you make is odd as that was not an air force rank) to that of radio mechanic. Have you obtained a copy of his service record from Personnel Recrods, NZDF? If not, see here for details: www.nzdf.mil.nz/personnel-records/nzdf-archives/Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 1, 2012 12:56:03 GMT 12
No, not necessarily, in the first few weeks or months of the war the ex-TAF squadroins, now fully operational GR squadrons, seem to have still been allocating the TAF style service numbers.
From the time that the Wellington (GR) Squadron set up Headquarters at Woodbourne on the 6th of September 1939 a large number of local boys and men from Blenheim swarmed to join up. In fact it is recorded that 50 men from the district had signed on within the first hour of recruitment opening there, Rex Coker and his team were almost overwhelemed. It seems that Chic might have been among the first to join on that first day. Not all stayed with the squadron, in the end 34 new locally-sourced recruits joined the Wellington (GR) Squadron while others were sent elsewhere to serve.
Another who joined up from Blenheim at that time was John Leslie Andrews, his service number being NZ439030 so he was ahead in the queue of Chic. I am pretty sure that these men were not in the TAF pre-WWII at all.
So I see no inconsistency with the serial number being a pre-war type, it was a mad rush that week of people joining and I doubt anyone had thought to switch over the serial number allocation from what they had been used to for two years already.
It is possible the 1941 service number was simply a clerical allocation, maybe they disicovered two men with the same serial, which did happen, probably due to the mad rush that these men were signed up. For example two men in the squadron seem to have had the serial number NZ439043!
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 1, 2012 13:41:42 GMT 12
No, not necessarily, in the first few weeks or months of the war the ex-TAF squadroins, now fully operational GR squadrons, seem to have still been allocating the TAF style service numbers. From the time that the Wellington (GR) Squadron set up Headquarters at Woodbourne on the 6th of September 1939 a large number of local boys and men from Blenheim swarmed to join up. In fact it is recorded that 50 men from the district had signed on within the first hour of recruitment opening there, Rex Coker and his team were almost overwhelemed. It seems that Chic might have been among the first to join on that first day. Not all stayed with the squadron, in the end 34 new locally-sourced recruits joined the Wellington (GR) Squadron while others were sent elsewhere to serve. Another who joined up from Blenheim at that time was John Leslie Andrews, his service number being NZ439030 so he was ahead in the queue of Chic. I am pretty sure that these men were not in the TAF pre-WWII at all. So I see no inconsistency with the serial number being a pre-war type, it was a mad rush that week of people joining and I doubt anyone had thought to switch over the serial number allocation from what they had been used to for two years already. It is possible the 1941 service number was simply a clerical allocation, maybe they disicovered two men with the same serial, which did happen, probably due to the mad rush that these men were signed up. For example two men in the squadron seem to have had the serial number NZ439043! Dave, I've not sighted any documentation to support this possibility, so I think the jury is still out on it. I don't think the issue of NZ414063 to Elsmore was due to a clerical error - he was one of 45 radio mechanics enlisted on 18 July 1941. With the exception of one omission the numbers allotted to 41 of them were sequential (NZ414050 to NZ414091, with Elsmore in the middle of them). Errol
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Post by wheezynana on Mar 1, 2012 14:12:39 GMT 12
Dave, Errol et al
Chic's daughter & Rachel's aunt here - I have Chic's RNZAF Posting Instruction which granted him 14 days Release Leave w.e.f. 9/11/45 terminating 22/11/45. Transferred to RNZAF Reserve Class "C" w.e.f. 23/11/45 Dated 2/5/46 & signed by H.H.Hickey F/O
His number on this and his certificate of discharge is NZ 39046
Chic's full name - Charles Edward Elsmore.
His drivers license issued in 1941 has number as NZ 439046
Anne
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 1, 2012 14:32:07 GMT 12
Dave, Errol et al Chic's daughter & Rachel's aunt here - I have Chic's RNZAF Posting Instruction which granted him 14 days Release Leave w.e.f. 9/11/45 terminating 22/11/45. Transferred to RNZAF Reserve Class "C" w.e.f. 23/11/45 Dated 2/5/46 & signed by H.H.Hickey F/O His number on this and his certificate of discharge is NZ 39046 Chic's full name - Charles Edward Elsmore. His drivers license issued in 1941 has number as NZ 439046 Anne Hello Anne, Many thanks for these details. It looks as though there may have been two Charles Elsmore's in the RNZAF. NZ414063 is recorded in Routine Orders on enlistment as Charles Edwin Elsmore, born 10 August 1906. Could he perhaps have been related to Charles Edward Elsmore? NZ39046 was allotted to Hunter Barrett Thompson, so Chic's discharge certificate is in error on this point, but not the driver's licence it seems. Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 1, 2012 14:51:16 GMT 12
Welcome Anne, thanks for that info and for confirming that Chic's middle name was not Edwin. I am certain now they must have been two different men, Charles Edward 'Chic' Elsmore, Firecrew, and Charles Edwin Elsmore, Wireless Mechanic.
Chic was still listed as Firecrew in 1944 when he embarked with No. 5 SU Errol, Rachel sent me a copy of the passenger roll for the vessel that carried No. 5 SU to Emirau. So it has to be a different man that was a Wireless Mechanic.
I definately have documentation about the local men joining the squadron in the first week of the war, somewhere. It all came about after the Marlborough Express announced the Squadron as coming to Woodbourne and were looking for recruits. I even have a list of those recruits signed on post-6 Sept 1939 too I think from memory. And the memoirs of John Andrews who wrote about joining up at that time. It will all be in my book...
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Post by wheezynana on Mar 1, 2012 15:32:42 GMT 12
Sorry Errol - no Charles Edwin in my extensive Elsmore family tree although the name Edwin does feature but not with that birthdate or anywhere close.
Thanks Dave for the welcome - John Andrews was a friend of Dad's who we always knew by his nickname 'Cracker'.
Getting together with Rachel this weekend........
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 1, 2012 15:53:01 GMT 12
Yes, that's him, Cracker Andrews.
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 1, 2012 16:18:19 GMT 12
I definately have documentation about the local men joining the squadron in the first week of the war, somewhere. It all came about after the Marlborough Express announced the Squadron as coming to Woodbourne and were looking for recruits. I even have a list of those recruits signed on post-6 Sept 1939 too I think from memory. Dave, Would like to get copies of those docs when you turn them up again. Errol
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Post by angelsonefive on Mar 1, 2012 17:48:39 GMT 12
Re. NZ414063 Charles Edwin Elsmore, RNZAF, Radio Mechanic. The burial records of the Palm. North City Council show an ash burial in the Kelvin Grove Cemetery for the following : Charles Edwin Elsmore. Date of death : 13/8/84. Age : 78 years. Address : Awapuni Hospital. Occupation : NZ Post Office Supervisor. ( Presumably retired. ) Mr Elsmore's employment with the NZPO fits nicely with NZ414063 Chas. Edwin Elsmore's duty in the Air Force, and I am fairly confident that this is the same person. Charles Edwin Elsmore would have been 35 y.o. when he enlisted in 1941, so all credit to him, as a Recruit Course with its PT and route marches in full kit etc, would not have been easy for someone in that age group.. webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:uN8_6jxStpEJ:www.pncc.govt.nz/servicesandfacilities/onlineservices/cemetery-and-crem
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 1, 2012 18:03:11 GMT 12
Thanks for that.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 1, 2012 18:36:55 GMT 12
Interestingly the No. 1 Port Depot passenger list for No. 5 SU embarking on the Boris to head to the Pacific, dated 20/9/44 lists Chic's service number as 39046. Not 439046. Another error.
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