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Post by baz62 on Dec 3, 2011 9:51:56 GMT 12
Oh, would you all shut up! How the hell can I record NZ ATC transmissions on my computer with you lot carrying on and making so much noise in the background?  ;D ;D ;D ;D Stirrer heh heh heh, oh and thanks for the fridge magnets Craig very cool having a Corsair and a NAC liveried B737 on the fridge! And advertising the Forum too! ;D |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 3, 2011 10:40:26 GMT 12
If I manage to get to Ardmore tomorrow, I will bring a bunch of the magnets to hand out to any members who'd like them. They're great.
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Post by corsair67 on Dec 3, 2011 11:09:18 GMT 12
Oh, would you all shut up! How the hell can I record NZ ATC transmissions on my computer with you lot carrying on and making so much noise in the background? ;D ;D ;D ;D Stirrer heh heh heh, oh and thanks for the fridge magnets Craig very cool having a Corsair and a NAC liveried B737 on the fridge! And advertising the Forum too! ;D Stirrer - moi? ;D Glad you liked the magnets, Baz.  (I still have a small number of magnets over here, so if anyone else would like a couple, PM me your postal address, and I will send them out to you.) |
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Post by Bearcat on Dec 3, 2011 11:44:34 GMT 12
Well here in South Africa the Police arrested an aviation enthusiast for listening to ATC transmissions !!
It went to court and the bloke was convicted of a criminal offence.
There was much outrage about it within the aviation community however it did not change the verdict. In essence I think the conviction was for being in possession of a "listening device" without a proper licence to have such a device however I believe the law here is very unclear as to what licence one needs for a scanner (btw, it was only a receiver, not a transceiver)
The bottom line is ... if you are visiting South Africa (as many aviation enthusiasts do) ... rather leave yr scanner at home
If anyone wants to find out more about what happened in this case, just Google Julian Swift who was the enthusiast involved.
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Post by hardyakka on Dec 4, 2011 16:41:00 GMT 12
I's just like to add my voice to the crowd thanking Slackie for bringing the law to our attention. I did not know that law existed and although it sounds counter-intuitive, I now know that if I don't want to be hassled by the authorities, I should abide by it.
In NZ we do have a democratic government system and if I felt strongly enough about it I could wage a campaign to have the law changed... but I don't think I am incensed enough to do so.
I also think it is one of those laws that infringers would only be pursued if they did something like spreading ATC transmissions on a situation where an accident occurred and it had the potential to affect the outcome of an investigation... or someone was using ATC radio transmissions from drug-spotter aircraft to warn their mates to hide their crop...
Although Slackie is 100% correct about it being illegal, you'll probably find that Youtube indiscretions would only be taken up for action if a complaint was laid. (IANAL and YMMV etc...)
Like the streakers who ran through the Te Awa shopping mall last night, what they were doing was technically illegal (indecent exposure), I think all the witnesses were too busy laughing (or pointing their camera-phones) to lay a complaint. The guys were pretty fleet of foot and I suspect the mall security guards would have had trouble catching them.
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Post by bell407 on Dec 6, 2011 8:14:23 GMT 12
I don't know, I understand privacy in the work place, I would hate if my boss recored me during the day without my knowledge, BUT
At some airshows they tune into the comms via the PA system when the crowd can hear the comms between ATC and the performing aircraft, are spectators supposed to turn off their camera and other recording devices at these times? what if I'm standing at the flight line filming the F18 and the dude next to me has a scanner so I can pick up the comms even though they are not on the PA, have I now broken the law, am I a criminal who needs to be locked up or otherwise punished for the good of the community?
Is it okay for me to listen to live ATC comms and then pass on what I heard from another country? For example, my uncle flies the Emirates A380 and I was listening to him on approach to Sydney and I could actually identify his voice, I then called my Gran, (his mom) in Howick and told her I could hear him and what he said over the radio, she now has radar 24 and one of the ATC listening sites on her PC and spends a lot of her time just listening to the pilots, the old girl loves it.
So my question is, does this law apply only to ATC comms inside of NZ or because I live here am I not allowed to repeat anything I heard occurring outside of NZ and had nothing to do with NZ ATC? Should I be punished for repeating what my uncle said over the radio in Sydney to his mom?
If I could have heard him on approach to AKL and repeated what he said to his mom in AKL should I be punished for that?
What if I'm listening to the scanner and I hear a cell phone call from a plane on approach to Auckland and the speaker says they are going to rush the cockpit and crash the plane into Auckland city, according to this law, it is vital I don't repeat what I've heard because the transmission was not intended for me?
Maybe I'm videoing the departures and arrivals from AKL and some ugly event takes place and ATC never heard the last transmission properly but I did, it would be illegal for me to repeat that transmission and because it is illegal to record it I would be forced to delete it because like a good sheep I must abide by the letter of the law.
I think this law was written long ago and that the spirit and intent of the law was to protect privacy, not to impede on a hobby, I think, that with today's technology and the way we use it in our hobbies the law needs to change and become more specific, ie, don't record phone calls, don't intentionally interfere with private conversations, but if you manage to get air show / civvie airport chatter on your You Tube video, don't lose to much sleep over it.
I don't think it has any bearing on terror, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that planes land and take off from international airports, you don't need ATC comms to figure that out if you want to nail one on take off or landing, and if it were an important tool for terrorists I'm sure they could find their own scanners to listen to ATC, what I repeat or put on my You tube will have little to no relevance to them.
By the way, when I told my uncle what I heard him say in his broadcast to ATC he found it awesome that I could even listen in and was quite happy for me to send him a link to the ATC website I heard him on.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Dec 6, 2011 14:21:08 GMT 12
At an airshow if broadcast then it's intended for public transmission. The scanner I don't know. What the rule is overseas I do not know. If you tell your mum what you heard on the radio, then technically you are breaking the law based on the information provided in the thread. Will you be punished? Probably not. Your uncle may be cool with your sharing of his transmissions; the controller and their employers obviously were too.  |
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Post by slackie on Dec 7, 2011 11:31:57 GMT 12
Actually no, at some airshows the organisers that choose to re-transmit radio frequencies have no right to do so and are also in breach of the Act... this was the case at a TG show a couple of years ago... when they were informed of the Act they stopped the PA.
I don't have all the answers here chaps... I have merely brought the Act to your attention so that a wider cross section of the community are aware of its existance. The only place you'll really get a definitive answer to many of these questions is in court (should it make it that far).
Bell407 - I'd suggest that (in the case of the Sydney APP) you didn't hear a "radio transmission" but a live streamed audio and so you are not breaking the law... however if it was the Auckland APP and you hear it on your scanner then technically yes, you would be in breach, and if you hear it as streamed audio on the 'net then the person streaming it is liable, and possibly you for passing on the information.
And I think this law has EVERYTHING to do with privacy... hobby or not, you are still eavesdropping on transmissions that are not intended for you, and until someone changes the law, it is illegal to do anything with the information you hear.
Flyjoe... I agree with your picture whole heartedly!!!
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Post by haughtney1 on Dec 26, 2011 6:16:38 GMT 12
This thread, and this particular law succinctly sums up what is wrong with NZ these days.
On the one hand we have a piece of utterly restrictive legislation that actually does very little to restrict the practices that one would consider are not in the public interest...in fact it does more harm than good in my opinion.
Secondly, as Joe's picture so beautifully illustrates...it is like flogging a dead horse..cause its never going to change.
Now let's turn this back to an aviation context...consider this...
The 777 I fly has a speaker function for all radio transmissions...that means I don't have to wear a headset, which is good for my hairstyle, and even better for my ears.....but hold on a minute...the CVR records all flight deck conversations INCLUDING all ATC radio transmissions (it on the speaker so it has by definition been broadcast)..it's a breach of the act, I fully expect to see the NZ Police waiting to arrest me next time I pull onto stand at AKL or CHC.
As if that's not enough, the other day going into AKL I went off freq to talk to our ramp agents....when I came back on I asked the Capt if there were any changes...he's said "yes ATC cleared couple of dash 8's ahead of us for the 23L visual approach" so now he's going to jail as well for broadcasting ATC transmissions.
What a stupendously idiotic law...worthy no less of the corrupt regime in SA, and various other banana and former soviet republics. (It was once on the statute book in the UK until someone realised that prosecutions did nothing more than waste time and money)
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Apr 23, 2012 19:19:33 GMT 12
Actually no, at some airshows the organisers that choose to re-transmit radio frequencies have no right to do so and are also in breach of the Act... this was the case at a TG show a couple of years ago... when they were informed of the Act they stopped the PA. I'm sure I've got official DVDs (and VHS videos of earlier arishows) of Warbirds Over Wanaka and possibly even Classic Fighters airshows where you can hear ATC transmissions being broadcast over the PA system on the soundtrack of the DVD. |
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Post by slackie on Apr 24, 2012 8:40:36 GMT 12
Kiwithrottlejoc... check again... certainly in the years that I was in charge of the mobile tower at Wanaka no transmissions were included on the DVD. In fact the video production people were given a thorough briefing about what was permissible and what wasn't. One year they requested to record transmissions and instead they were happy to record a fake transmissions that were never actually transmitted.
You may remember a few years back the TVOne Breakfast show visited the old Christuchrch Tower. An agreement was drawn up between Airways and TVNZ with the approval of NZALPA that has become a standard agreement that must be signed between parties when there is a danger of recording live ATC transmissions.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 24, 2012 22:01:42 GMT 12
In the 60 Minutes programme on Sir Tim Wallis there was a clip of him getting into his Spitfire and calling up the tower, he says some frequency number like "1191" or something. They used that clip a few times in subsequent programmes after his crash. You don't actually hear the tower though. Maybe it was deemed legal to use.
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Post by flyinkiwi on May 15, 2012 15:56:27 GMT 12
Just out of interest, is it only NZ that prohibits recording of ATC? Probably. And the USA even allow it  I found out it is illegal in the UK as well, so that's probably where we got the law from. |
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Post by Radialicious on May 28, 2012 21:48:42 GMT 12
Has anyone attended the current travelling CAA seminar that focusses on radio use? I'm not certain but I understand radio calls have been recorded to illustrate good and not so good use of the radio by pilots. A friend of a friend attended one recently and was a bit embarrassed to find he was used as an example of how it shouldn't be done...
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Post by flyinkiwi on May 29, 2012 8:53:54 GMT 12
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Post by 701driver on Oct 19, 2012 22:30:18 GMT 12
in reading this thread i can understand the frustration of Darren and others, true this IS the law as it stands eg:its ok for us to record your transmissions and maybe use it against you should we suspect you of being naughty,but don't you dare do the same in your defence. it seems to me to be an excellent example of bad law,which as we all know breeds dissent. let's be real these transmissions are hardly earth shattering stuff. ironicly i believe there is a dvd/cd of airtraffic transmissions available on one of the local websites as an r/t training aid - wonder what the pointy heads have to say about that.
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Post by 701driver on Oct 19, 2012 22:43:14 GMT 12
damn it ! in reading my post and takeing the time to go over some of the previous posts i realise that i may have taken some of this discussion out of context, bugger. anyway in general any broadcast on radio (this includes cellphone) can have no expectation of privacy (your making a broadcast over open radio frequency) what is done with that infomation can be another matter. generaly any transmission that you are a party to is yours to do what you like with, conversations between third parties is not !
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Post by jimmyconway on Nov 1, 2012 13:46:33 GMT 12
Why do you guys want to listen to us anyway? If I eavesdropped on your conversation whilst at work, what would you have to say about that?
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Post by Ykato on Nov 1, 2012 14:15:09 GMT 12
Why do you guys want to listen to us anyway? If I eavesdropped on your conversation whilst at work, what would you have to say about that? Under that theory are all of the student & GA Pilots are also eaves dropping on your 'work conversations'? |
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Nov 1, 2012 14:58:46 GMT 12
Why do you guys want to listen to us anyway? If I eavesdropped on your conversation whilst at work, what would you have to say about that? Ummmm....I'm used to train nutters running around with scanners listening to our radio communications when I'm working. |
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