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Post by xr6turbo1 on Jun 28, 2006 22:15:45 GMT 12
That is a very interesting post Don.
You guys must have been shattered when the F16 deal fell through.
To be so fired up and hardly being able to wait until the F16s arrived and then have the rug pulled dissapointed a lot of Kiwis.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 28, 2006 22:40:46 GMT 12
Loosing the F-16 deal wasn't as bad as loosing the whole Air Combat Force 2 years later. That totally gutted me... still does. We (including our families) put our hearts and soles into the Air Combat role. Our A-4's and people were so highly respected in Australia and Asia, yet at home we were treated like s*** by Helen Clark and co. There were more accolades from the Australian Government at the disbandment parade than from our own Government - that said it all. Of course Helen didn't dare show her face at it and Burton just sat through the whole thing without saying a word... by then I had already been made redundant so couldn't participate in the parade - I had to watch it from the sidelines. The only reason I got on base for it was because I was working for Safe Air at the time so I had a pass to get onto base. That night there was a party in 2 Sqn's old hangar. Once that finished we all went over to the officers mess and continued there until daybreak, when a few of us climbed up onto the 75 Sqn hangar roof to watch the sun come up. All the A-4's were outside on the flightline below us. It was one hell of a serene and special moment watching the sun rise over these beautiful aircraft and hangars. No one had a camera unfortunately but I will treasure that sunrise forever! Pretty soon the Provo's came along and made us get down off the roof, but by then we didn't care!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 28, 2006 22:42:58 GMT 12
Welcom to the forum Don. A great first post there! Very informative and interesting. I am looking forward to hearing more from you here on the forum.
Cheers
Dave
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Post by steve on Jun 29, 2006 1:04:28 GMT 12
thanks Don for that final insight in the demise of our strike wing....having a basic air strike ability after the proud days of WW2 with the RNZAF serving in europe and the pacific made us all proud ...except Clark and co who were still locked into the anti US vietnam days of the 1970s and everything military...In the final flypast of a sole A4 over whenuapai (where the pilot apparently poped rivots) the NZ Police decided it an oppotunity to place a booze bus outside the gates a t 11 am....i was really surprised ...
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Post by steve on Jun 29, 2006 16:36:39 GMT 12
.......In the RNZAF arsenal was there ever laser guided bombs or any smart ordinance besides the mavaricks?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 29, 2006 17:49:04 GMT 12
We had smart pilots, so why the need for smart bombs?
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 29, 2006 18:11:51 GMT 12
The only "Smart"weapons the RNZAF had for the Kahu A-4 were the AIM-9L Sidewinder, AGM-65B (TV Guided) and AGM-65G (Infra-red guided) Maveric's and the 1000lb GBU-16 Laser Guided Bomb.
However the Kahu weapons system made the traditional "dumb" weapons extremely accurate in the hands of a good pilot. For example pre Kahu the average score in air-to-air gunnery on the target banner towed by a Strikemaster was about 2%. Post Kahu this increased to 20-30%, with scores of 50% not unheard of. The APG-66 radar made this possible as it provided the weapon aiming computer and HUD with accurate aiming information. Air-to-ground guns, rockets and bombs were similarly very accurate (including in the toss mode) when the radar was used to provide range information (including against moving targets like ships). One of the best stories I recall from my Kahu test flight days was when Steve Moore tossed a 500lb bomb at Volkner rock and instead of continuing to fly over the top after weapon release he rolled inverted and pulled back down and locked the radar onto the bomb in flight (using the radar air-to-air single target track mode). He was able to watch the bomb on his radar screen and through the HUD as it flew to the target, scoring a direct hit! That was in 1989 and at that time the Kahu system was by far the most advanced avionics kit in any fighter in the world... heady times for the little old RNZAF! Even today - nearly 20 years after the Kahu system was designed there are features of the system that are better than anything else flying.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 29, 2006 18:46:41 GMT 12
That's an interesting statistic about the air to air firing scores. I hadn't heard that before. I also have never seen anything about the Skyhawks firing at towed target banners, what were they towed by? Other A-4K's? I guess it'd have to be, given the speed factor.
Where did they do this practice? Kaipara range? I'd love to see some photos of Skyhawk air to air live firing practice. Are any available or are they classified?
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 29, 2006 20:38:41 GMT 12
The banner (as the air-to-air gunnery target was know) was towed initially by the Strikemasters and then by the Macchi's. I don't have any still photos of it, but I do have some Skyhawk HUD footage of it being shot at. I'm guessing it was about 20ft long by 5ft wide. A problem post Kahu was the steel cable that the banner was attached to the towing aircraft with was often shot off. The Skyhawk radar would lock onto the small radar reflector at the front of the banner and the Kahu system was so damn good the pilot could shoot the cable off! The 20mm rounds fired were spray painted with a dazzle coloured paint which left a coloured hole in the banner when a hit was scored. Hence when the banner was recovered back at Ohakea the Armourers would count the number of hits and also count the number of rounds fired from each aircraft. They could then work out the percentage of hits to rounds fired. Different aircraft had different coloured rounds so multiple aircraft could shoot at the banner on one banner towing sortie. The live firing was always done out over the sea off Raumai to the west of Ohakea. The area was a restricted one for ships and other aircraft, but it was not unknown for fishing boats to be in the area and to have to be "beaten up" to give them the message to move away.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 29, 2006 20:55:50 GMT 12
Fascinating stuff. Thanks Don.
How were the banners deployed from the Blunties and Maachis? Were they winched out of an underwing pod, or from the side like the WWII aircraft (Vildebeests and Gordons, etc)?
Were only specific 14 Sqn aircraft detailed to tow banners, or did all of them do it at some stage? I'm just wonderign if only one or two were fitted with the kit to do the job?
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 29, 2006 21:15:04 GMT 12
I think all the Blunties and Macchi's could tow the banner (maybe someone who worked on them could answer that - I only ever worked on Skyhawks). On the Macchi I think the cable was attached to the speedbrake, so when the speedbrake was opened it released the cable and the banner dropped to the ground before the Macchi landed. Takeoff was just a case of hook the cable on at the end of the runway and away you go! The banner had small wheels on it so it followed the aircraft along the runway on those until it got airborne. There was no winch or anything. It was just a fixed length cable towed behind, much like a glider is towed aloft.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 29, 2006 21:31:10 GMT 12
Cheers. I never saw this happen in the months I was at OH, but then the weather was solid rain and wind and I seldom saw planes. Heard them, endlessly day and night, but seldom saw them!
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Post by steve on Jun 30, 2006 1:04:12 GMT 12
Dave...you're right smart pilots...eg Steve Moore & co ....& thanks Don for the insight...so we did have 1000lb laser guided bombs...I was not 100% sure....although i sighted what appears to be smart bombs in the skyhawk "last rites book"....I really apreciate reading the insights of all you ex RNZAF guys ....that made us all proud of what you did with so little!
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Post by corsair67 on Jun 30, 2006 14:49:40 GMT 12
Don, this is one of the points that Comrade Clark just doesn't get: disbanding the ACW isn't just about getting rid of a few aircraft, it also has an effect on all the men and women who were involved in keeping those aircraft operational too. Plus it made NZ look like a big girl's blouse!
I always felt so proud whenever I saw the Kiwi Skyhawks in action over Canberra, or elsewhere in Australia. The Australian War Memorial Open Day in January 2001 was one of the best I've been to because of the four Skyhawks that came and did a series of passes along ANZAC Pde: they were so low, and the noise (as always!) was fantastic! I only wish I'd gone to more of the flying days at Nowra while No 2SQN was based there; but then I guess I alway thought they'd be there. I never ever thought a loon like Clark was going to take over and completely fark the RNZAF up!
BURN THE WITCH! BURN THE WITCH! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by phil82 on Jun 30, 2006 15:52:54 GMT 12
At the time, some very experienced military people pointed out to Helen in clear, concise terms why she was wrong, but they were dismissed as "geriatrics". They even wrote and published the detail of why she was wrong: "Choice or Change": ISBN 0-473-08732-4, which might still be available in good libraries.
The Geriatrics?
Sir Richard Bolt, former Lancaster and pathfinder pilot, as well as former CAS and CDS.
Gerard Hensley, former Defence Secretary
Sir Ewen Jamieson: former CAS
AVM Robin Klitscher.
Denis McLean: former Defence Secretary
Sir Somerford Teagle: former CNS and CDS
...all dismissed by Helen as being totally irrelevant. Removal of the ACW was not just a blow to the RNZAF, but to New Zealand as a whole. All the technical infrastructure built up over fifty years was destroyed, and the flow-on benefit of that to the country as a whole cannot be understated.
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Post by corsair67 on Jun 30, 2006 16:21:06 GMT 12
Yes, well of course she'd ignore them: they were telling her something she didn't want to hear! She's spent most of her political life doing that!  Anyway, what would those "geriatrics" (probably with over 200+ years of experience in the use of airpower between them!) know?  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 30, 2006 16:51:43 GMT 12
If I were to listen to anyone advising me on aviation and defence, it would definately be Sir Richard Bolt. The pedigree of the man alone speaks volumes. Still, I thionk his dad had a similar trouble with deaf governments for quite some time too... then a war happened and he was brought in to fix the mess...
Foretting her ignorance of these 'geriatric' experts, she also failed to listen to over 90% of New Zealanders polled in many different polls who said the move was dangerous and stupid, and were against it. I have not yet met anyone who was for them scrapping the jet wing. Seriously. Whenever i say i used to be in the RNZAF to anyone I get pity now, and commissoration for what happened (well after I left!)
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Post by phil82 on Jun 30, 2006 17:02:26 GMT 12
I know Dick Bolt...used to work for him in fact...and you will never meet a more unassuming guy, but his record in war and peace speaks for itself. He lives not far from me, and whenever I meet him in places like supermarket carparks, I have an almost irresistable urge to salute!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 30, 2006 17:45:12 GMT 12
He is someone who I'd love to read the memoirs of. It must have been amazing growing up in his family, having George as his dad. And then his own war service and postwar career would also be amazing. Does anyone know if he has written any memories down, or been interviewed?
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Post by phil82 on Jun 30, 2006 19:03:37 GMT 12
No. Not to my knowledge. I know a little of his wartime period, but he doesn't dwell on it. He's actually a very quiet sort of character.
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