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Post by fwx on May 19, 2012 9:07:11 GMT 12
Thanks Dee, good suggestions. Douglas is not keen to travel if he can't go with the official party, so we are crossing toes and fingers awaiting a decision from Nathan Guy, the Minister of Veterans Affairs. I've also fired off a letter to the PM, whether that will help or not??
For the same reasons, Douglas has declined offers of donations towards an airfare. He has requested tickets to the Memorial ceremony on an 'if-successful' basis. Lets hope we hear soon, as not much time left to make arrangements now!
Have you received his book yet Dee? A good read. Cheers, Chris
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furd
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 71
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Post by furd on May 19, 2012 9:44:21 GMT 12
I certainly have some sympathy for Mr Williamson's situation however lets take all the emotion out of this debate. Money is allocated to VANZ by the Govt each year to subsidise the travel of NZ veterans who served in the NZ military. A maximum of $2000 is available to the veteran to attend an overseas commemoration. This subsidy is available once only and to qualify the NZ veteran must have been involved in the particular campaign being commemorated.
Mr Williamson was not a NZ veteran in Bomber Command during WW2 and simply does not qualify under the programme. To make an exception in this case would open the flood gates for many ex British servicemen who may have been attached to NZ units to also go to commemorations at the NZ taxpayers expense.
The same rules apply with regard to veteran's pensions and disability pensions. They are for NZ military only and British servicemen do not qualify, they are instead directed to the British MOD. The onus is on the British Govt to support Mr Williamson's travel and associated costs to the Bomber Command commemoration not the NZ Govt.
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Post by fwx on May 19, 2012 10:04:57 GMT 12
But the British government has confirmed that it will not support these veterans, many of them resident here since just after the war.
This is not an emotional argument; why should these people fall down some kind of bureaucratic hole between respective government policies? If you had lived in NZ for 40-60 years of your life would you not feel let down by this policy, a right to be treated equally?
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furd
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 71
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Post by furd on May 19, 2012 19:06:45 GMT 12
Sorry fwx you don't seem to get it. The British Govt is responsible for British ex-servicemen and in this case they have abandoned Mr Williamson. VANZ is there for the welfare of NZ military servicemen by an act of Parliament and as a long time RSA Pensions and Welfare Officer getting funding and balloting for our servicemen on RNZAF flights to various commemorations is difficult enough. Not all qualifying NZ service veterans are able to make the flights because of the limit on seats.
I suggest like the gentleman in Nelson who is in the same situation as Mr Williamson and is also not eligible for the VANZ flight that you put your energies into getting funding from the general public. His supporters have raised suffient funds to send him and his wife to the Bomber Command commemoration.
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Post by fwx on May 20, 2012 15:27:13 GMT 12
You're right furd, I don't get it. Just another case of a rule being adhered to only because its a rule.
I don't doubt that VANZ has budgets and restrictions and pressures and precedents to work within, and I'm not criticising them at all. They are doing a wonderful job by all accounts.
But to send a half-empty plane and leave behind Kiwi bomber veterans who are fit and busting to go?? It is a Commonwealth Memorial, these guys served in 'Commonwealth' crews, and in Mr Williamson's case, he served in a New Zealand Squadron.
Irrespective of inter-governmental pension arrangements, etc., this is a one-off, all-time historic acknowledgement of ALL the bomber crews. Australia has only in the past few days announced it will send 30 vets instead of the 6 originally planned. I hope our government will also rise to the occasion.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 20, 2012 16:12:35 GMT 12
Rather than backbiting about VANZ funding and who's right and wrong, might I suggest it might be more productive to make an appeal on behalf of the British bomber veterans who wish totravel from NZ to the event to well known British rich list types who have an interest in military history and veterans, such as billionaire medal collector Lord Ashcroft?
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Post by baz62 on May 20, 2012 16:35:07 GMT 12
That is a great idea Dave! And if I've one lotto I'l fund them!
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Post by fwx on May 28, 2012 8:20:13 GMT 12
This morning's Herald: www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=1080887032 bomber vets qualify for London memorialThirty-two survivors of the 6000 New Zealanders who flew in bombing raids over Europe during World War II have been approved for a Government-paid trip to London for the Bomber Command memorial dedication and unveiling. The men are aged between 87 and 94. The Government will cover their international travel, accommodation and other costs including their care and support teams and medical assistance during the two-week trip. Veterans Affairs NZ manager Rick Ottaway said that to be eligible for the trip, veterans had to have been members of the RNZAF and served with Bomber Command. Each veteran was medically assessed to ensure he was fit to travel, and to attend three official functions. Mr Ottaway said more than 90 veterans had applied for the trip. However, 40 withdrew after considering the difficulty of the journey. One of those is the last-surviving pilot from the Dambusters raid in Germany in 1943, Les Munro. The Herald understands that the other applicants failed to pass a medical assessment. Disappointed veterans and their families have the consolation of being able to attend a New Zealand ceremony to acknowledge their service. One of the men going to London is former navigator Harold "Bunny" Burrows, 92, who lives in Auckland. "I'm looking forward to it," he said. "It will be good for the Bomber Command boys because they took a terrible beating. "Of the 20 men I started operations with, only two were still flying at the end of the war. I was lucky." Mr Burrows said he was "not agile but fit enough" for the trip and its demands, which will include the ceremony to inaugurate the $12 million memorial, which New Zealanders helped to pay for, a reception at the New Zealand High Commission and a Lord Mayor's dinner for Bomber Command veterans. The Government refused to include the dozen living members of Britain's Royal Air Force who flew with New Zealanders as flight engineers and who later became New Zealand citizens. One of them, Aucklander Doug Williamson, was told he did not qualify despite flying 32 missions with New Zealand bomber crews. He told the Herald he was fit and would have liked to be part of the official bomber memorial ceremony to represent his crew who were no longer alive.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 28, 2012 10:10:52 GMT 12
I found out this week one of the bomber pilots who is attending is my friend Jack Morris of Auckland, who was originally from Cambridge and who's amazing story is on my website. He was shot down on his first raid, evaded and got back, joined another squadron and was soon shot down again, evaded again till he heard British voices and was sure he was at the Allied lines so revealled himself but found there were Germans between him and the Brits. He was captured and made a POW. He was prisoner till the end of the war and endured the horrific Long March. A great chap, I'm glad he is getting to go back to London.
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Post by fwx on May 28, 2012 10:41:07 GMT 12
That's great Dave, they will all be very excited I'm sure! I've just received a copy of the full media release from Veterans Affairs which lists the names of 25 of the veterans in the group, out of the 32 going.
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Post by oggie2620 on May 29, 2012 2:46:28 GMT 12
Thats great Dave. Will be great to meet him while hes here...
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Post by fwx on May 31, 2012 22:18:39 GMT 12
Just to update, we received the official response today from Minister of Veterans Affairs, Hon Nathan Guy. The position remains the same, that only veterans who served as RNZAF qualify for government support. But he thanked us for taking the time to outline our concerns to him.
So thank you very much to all those who offered words of support (and assistance) to Douglas - he and his wife Janet are very appreciative. We have to accept the government's decision and be happy for the guys who are going. It will be a great occasion!
Seems like there is going to be some kind of commemoration here in NZ for the veterans who couldn't make it, for whatever reasons, so that will be something to really look forward to.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 31, 2012 22:31:43 GMT 12
That is this Sunday, details elsewhere on the forum.
OK so they won't take him as a veteran. Can he get a media pass and travel on the Boeing 757 as a "hangar-on"? That's who'll be in the other seats, media and bureaucrats.
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Post by fwx on May 31, 2012 23:02:07 GMT 12
Yes Dave, there will be quite an echo with all the empty seats down the back of that plane ... I wonder if Doug had flown 100 missions like our friend The Captains Fancy (British born and bred, only ever flew for the RAF) then they would be keen to claim him as RNZAF as well?!
I think the Sunday service at the Museum is something different.
The VANZ media release quotes Rick Ottaway as saying "“I acknowledge that there will be some disappointment amongst those who are not able to attend the London-based event, however we will support those veterans to attend a ceremony to acknowledge their service here in New Zealand.”
That implies that they will help vets travel to some central Bomber Command commemoration here in NZ?
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Post by brucehooper on Jun 19, 2012 0:04:19 GMT 12
Great history. My father is in the photo that shows the squadron under and on the wings of the Lancaster at Mepal in 1945. He was F/O HW Hooper and was stationed at Mepal from December 1944 to the end of the war. My father was born in New Zealand went to war in 1943 served in 485 squadron as ground crew and then went and trained in Canada (Winnipeg) to fly Lancaster's. It would be intriguing to see if Doug Williamson new of my father. The wing commander at the time my father served was Wing Commander Baigent. Keep up the good research it is very interesting.
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Post by fwx on Jun 19, 2012 9:25:11 GMT 12
Hi brucehooper (Bruce?), great to hear from you. Do you have a copy of that full-Squadron photo? If not, I can send you a higher-resolution copy. I hope to get an even better-quality version via one of two family members who have framed originals.
Do you know which Flight your Dad was in, A, B or C? His logbook would show which one he was in, where it is stamped and signed off by the Officer Commanding.
We have a copy of the C Flight photo (shown earlier here, in front of the same Lanc, taken on the same day), courtesy of Douglas Williamson, and I know where you can get a copy of the B Flight equivalent.
Also, I'm assuming your Dad was a Pilot? I will ask Douglas if he remembers him.
Do you have any photos from your Dad's time at Mepal? These are extremely hard to come by, and for those of us trying to research relatives who were based there, it would be great to see something of the station and station life.
Meanwhile I am waiting on some more of my uncle's material, so hope to be able to add more here in future.
Cheers, Chris
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Post by errolmartyn on Jun 19, 2012 11:12:48 GMT 12
Great history. My father is in the photo that shows the squadron under and on the wings of the Lancaster at Mepal in 1945. He was F/O HW Hooper and was stationed at Mepal from December 1944 to the end of the war. My father was born in New Zealand went to war in 1943 served in 485 squadron as ground crew and then went and trained in Canada (Winnipeg) to fly Lancaster's. It would be intriguing to see if Doug Williamson new of my father. The wing commander at the time my father served was Wing Commander Baigent. Keep up the good research it is very interesting. From Colin Hanson’s By Such Deeds - Honours and Awards in the Royal New Zealand Air Force, 1923-1999: HOOPER, Flying Officer Herbert Wilfred, DFC.NZ40111; Born Kaponga, 21 Jun 1914; RNZAF 5 Jan 1940 to 30 Jan 1946; Pilot. Citation Distinguished Flying Cross (7 Dec 1945): [75(NZ)Sqn RAF (Lancaster)] Flying Officer Hooper, as Pilot, has completed numerous operations against the enemy, in the course of which he has invariably displayed the utmost fortitude, courage and devotion to duty. Flt Lt Hooper joined the RNZAF as an armourer and after initial ground training in NZ he embarked for the UK and was posted to 26 Sqn RAF (Lysander) in Sep 1940. On 1 Mar 1941 he joined 485 Sqn RNZAF (Spitfire) on its formation, serving with them until posted for aircrew training; pre-war he had flown as a pilot with the Hawera Aero Club. On completion of his pilot training in Canada and England he joined 75(NZ)Sqn at Mepal in Dec 1944. He completed one tour of 33 sorties to the following targets - Osterfeld(2), Witten, Siegen, Trier(2), Dresden, Rheydt(2), Cologne(2), Heligoland minelaying(2), Wesel(3), Vohwinkel, Nuremberg, Ludwigshafen, Neuss, Sterkrade, Kiel, Essen, Wiesbaden, Hohenbudberg, Chemnitz, Kamen, Gelsenkirchen, Datteln, Dortmund, Hamm, The Hague (leaflets) and Hallendorf. An uncle, Wg Cdr W E Hooper AFC, served with the RAF from 1930, while a cousin Sgt P J Hooper RNZAF (pilot) was kao over Europe on 24 Jul 1942. And from my For Your Tomorrow - A record of New Zealanders who have died while serving with the RNZAF and Allied Air Services since 1915 (Volume One: Fates 1915-1942): Thu 23/Fri 24 Jul 1942 Bomber Command Raid on Duisburg, Germany (by 215 aircraft - 8 lost) 207 Squadron, RAF (Bottesford, Leicestershire - 5 Group) Lancaster I R5632/N - took off at 0048 captained by Flt Sgt W G Hawes, RAAF, and brought down into the North Sea, probably off the Dutch coast, where the body of an RCAF crew member later washed ashore. His six comrades are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial. 2nd Pilot(?): NZ404366 Sgt Percival James HOOPER, RNZAF - Age 21. 358hrs. 12th op. And from Vol Three (Biographies & Appendices): HOOPER, Sergeant Percival James. NZ404366; b Auroa 23 May 21; Manaia DHS (1st XI/XV) & Hawera THS (1st XI/XV); farm hand - father's farm at Auroa. RNZAF Levin/GTS as Airman Pilot u/t 23 Nov 40, 2EFTS 18 Jan 41, 3FTS 1 Mar 41, Pilots Badge [wef 14.4.41] & Sgt 24 May 41, att RAF & emb for UK 18 Jun 41, 3PRC 31 Jul 41, 2SAN 3 Aug 41, 25OTU (Wellington, Manchester) 13 Sep 41 [att 1507BATF (Oxford) for c.1 wk in e.Jan 42], 207 Sqn (Manchester, Lancaster - 12 ops) 28 Feb 42, kao 24 Jul 42. Runnymede Memorial - Panel 117. Son of James & Eva Elizabeth Hooper (née Hall), Auroa [BSD & phot. TWN 7.10.42]. Errol
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Post by pjw4118 on Jun 19, 2012 15:12:33 GMT 12
Can always depend on you Errol for the gen. FWX quite a few headers this month are 75 Sq photos.If you want to contact me ,there are a good number of Mepal pictures in the BCA archives. Just watched the 75th marked 757 do a very low airtest (my ears popped ) ready for Thursdays departure for London with the veterans..Take off is 0900 at Whenuapai
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Post by fwx on Jun 19, 2012 15:17:55 GMT 12
Thanks Peter, that would be great, I will email you. Cheers, Chris.
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Post by brucehooper on Jun 19, 2012 21:41:16 GMT 12
Hi brucehooper (Bruce?), great to hear from you. Do you have a copy of that full-Squadron photo? If not, I can send you a higher-resolution copy. I hope to get an even better-quality version via one of two family members who have framed originals. Do you know which Flight your Dad was in, A, B or C? His logbook would show which one he was in, where it is stamped and signed off by the Officer Commanding. We have a copy of the C Flight photo (shown earlier here, in front of the same Lanc, taken on the same day), courtesy of Douglas Williamson, and I know where you can get a copy of the B Flight equivalent. Also, I'm assuming your Dad was a Pilot? I will ask Douglas if he remembers him. Do you have any photos from your Dad's time at Mepal? These are extremely hard to come by, and for those of us trying to research relatives who were based there, it would be great to see something of the station and station life. Meanwhile I am waiting on some more of my uncle's material, so hope to be able to add more here in future. Cheers, Chris
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