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Post by pjw4118 on May 31, 2012 8:56:53 GMT 12
Yes Dave PB132 was AA-C of 75 Sq. Neville Selwood who was the crew navigator in 1945 tells me that two of the nose bomb symbols were probably Mana trips. Their ground crew who painted the bombs on considered these were ops , the aircraft being fully armed , operating over enemy held territory and the crews told to shoot back if necessary
PB 132 was apparently also a GH leader.
With the Lanc at Motat, the reason it was originally painted in 75 and 101 codes was that most RNZAF BC aircrew did not serve with 75 and so it was appropriate to have another squadron shown, but certainly on the AA side The Captains Fancy would have been a good choice.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 31, 2012 9:18:08 GMT 12
The No. 75 Squadron markings on the Lancaster was from the Lancaster used in the NZ wartime film Maximum Effort. MOTAT literature has claimed it was lost on ops, but that's not true.
If you wanted to paint just one side in The Captain's Fancy colours the markings would have to swap sides.
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Post by Tony on May 31, 2012 11:19:47 GMT 12
The No. 75 Squadron markings on the Lancaster was from the Lancaster used in the NZ wartime film Maximum Effort. MOTAT literature has claimed it was lost on ops, but that's not true. ND752 AA-O 1944: 20/21st July: Ops: Homberg; FTR. Brought down and crashed near Udenhout. P: Fg Off H J Burtt + FE: Sgt V C Cornish RAFVR + N: Flt Sgt V Connell RAAF PoW AB: Wt Off H J W Coedy RCAF PoW W.Op: Wt Off G L Gillan + AG: Sgt W F Carter RAFVR + AG: Sgt G A Levy RAFVR + One of six 75 Sqn Lancasters lost that night  I have the AHSNZ Journal that carried an article about the (then) MoTaT collection which included the reason for the dual identity. Paraphrasing: To recognise the contribution by ordinary NZ Airmen it was decided to do one side representing 75 Sqn and the other an RAF unit, 101 Sqn was chosen. The article stated that both aircraft were lost on operations carrying NZ Airmen to their deaths. The article also stated that other aircraft will be represented in subsequent repaints. Not quite true as PB457 is listed as being destroyed in a hangar fire at Ludford Magna while undergoing a 75 hour inspection. The MoTaT Lancaster web page: motataircraft.blogspot.co.nz/2007/12/lancaster.htmlhas SR-V (no serial) as lost in February 1945 while being captained by Flight Lieutenant W W Watt, RAF. This aircraft was PA237 SR-V which was shot down with the loss of the entire RAFVR crew. (The CWGC Site lists Watt as an Air Bomber). |
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 31, 2012 13:50:13 GMT 12
Well I stand corrected and apologise.
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Post by Tony on May 31, 2012 14:18:55 GMT 12
Well I stand corrected and apologise. None required nor asked for. Just keeping the record straight (I try. I really try. Or in the words of my wife - "He is bloody trying allright!") |
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 5, 2012 14:15:11 GMT 12
ND752 AA O was lost two months after Eric Witting's crew handed it over to the Burtt crew at the end of their tour. The Witting crew made "Maximum Effort" after their tour ended in May/June 1944. Their last flight together as a crew was in ND752 on 30/5/44 when they filmed the air-to-air shots for the film.
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Post by pb150grandaughter on Jun 11, 2012 5:12:48 GMT 12
' Does anyone know who the New Zealand crew member/s was/were? '
First of all Hello to all of you, I have come on this site to find out more information regarding the PB150 Lancaster New Zealand crew as my Granddad was the rear gunner for the PB150 Avro Lancaster New Zealand Crew, during WWII I am also trying to look for more information regarding the flights and any information regarding the plane that my granddad was such a big part of and thankfully made it back after the war.
Kind regards
Lyz
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Post by Luther Moore on Jun 11, 2012 5:49:00 GMT 12
Hi Lyz, you might want to add your Grandfathers name aswell.
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Post by pb150grandaughter on Jun 12, 2012 8:48:33 GMT 12
Apologies, that may have helped, his name was David Colebrooke, I am looking for more information on his missions but I may have been wrong regarding his mission on the PB150. My cousin is currently finishing off some research that may help further.
Kind regards
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Glen T
Flight Lieutenant
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Post by Glen T on Jun 14, 2012 0:43:56 GMT 12
Gents, The Captains Fancy, NE181, JN-M, was definately a C Flight aircraft, and arrived at Mepal in May 1944. Its first Op was to Duiesburg on the 21st. The cartoon character Captain Reilly-Foull from the Daily Mirror was painted on the left hand side of the nose, and the name Captains Fancy added. Later graphite grease was used to smear over the majority of the figure to reduce its appearance from fighters!! Just tonight, I looked thru every ORB page from the 1st of Jan 1945 until July 45 and listed NE 181's flights that were logged. From Alex Simpson's Log Book, he flew her on a day raid on the 5th of Jan 1945. He notes that this was her 101st operation (NB. these guys did not do missions!)... Alex's daughter told me several years ago just after Alex died, that Bailey was superstious, and did not want to do the 100th trip, and therefore asked Alex to do it. Well after Alex did the supposed 100th Op, they did a count back and it had actually been the flight before to be the 100th...!!! So .. from the ORB's... NE181 did...(Date...Skipper...Target).
1 Jan ..Hannan, Vohwinkel.
3 Jan ..Hannan, Dotmund.
5 Jan ..Simpson, Ludwigshaven.
6 Jan ..Clements, Neuss.
11 Jan.. Bailey, Krefeld.
16 Jan.. Bailey, Wanna Eickel
29 Jan.. Bailey, Krefeld.
2 Feb... Bailey, Weiesbaden.
.......................
11 May .. Ware, POW's from Juvencourt.
12 May .. Ballingall, POW's
13 May ..Thompson, POW's
15 May .. Ware, POW's
16 May .. Shaw, POW's
26 May .. Ballingall, Refugees x 10, POW's x 24.
So, noting Alex Simpsons Log Book entry on the 5th of Jan as the 101st Op, then NE181 completed 106 bombing operational flights. The ORB's do not show NE181 flying in Op Manna sorties, but she came back for the POW repatriation from Juvencourt. There were many flights across Germany and down to Bari mentioned but no aircraft numbers were listed for these flights during June and July before going to Spilsby. 75(NZ) left all their good aircraft at Mepal, and picked up rough and aging aircraft at Spilsby for Tiger Force...!! Just cannot understand their logic about that !!!!
So.. did they put The Captains Fancy in moth balls for several months then???
My colleague Mel Douglas in Levin, has spent the past two years researching "The Captains Fancy" artwork, and has completed for me a fantastically detailed print of the aircraft which I will be taking to England and to BC with me. He is marketing his work of course. For the past three years I have made ties, lapel pins, and ladies scarves with the Captains Fancy as my Lancaster 75 aircraft... see the 75 website for details...
So...I leave for Holland on Sunday and will be touring around Holland, Belgium and the edges of Germany to visit as many 75 crash sites and memorials and graves as I can get to, before getting into London for the BC memorial unveiling on June 28. Then head up to Mepal for a joint UK-NZ 75 Sqn Assn reunion. I requested of the NZ Veterans Affairs delegation to bring the NZ travelling group up to Mepal, Feltwell and Newmarket for the day, and they have included this on the trip... wonderful. The dinner will be at The Crown in Munford. So then I will be at Fairford for my 12th RIAT to work on the flightlines from Jul2, and just may have to visit Farnborough the week after as a spotter !!!
I will be loading my cemetrey piccs and aircraft loss stories on my - the 75 Squadron website..eventually, and you can also join the 75 Facebook page to catch up on other material. Till July....
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 14, 2012 1:10:04 GMT 12
Fantastic to see this detail Glen, many thanks.
Wow, you are going to have a wonderful and fascinating trip. Please give us all a full report on your return.
So is it true that the Captain's Fancy nose art is actually at Wigram?
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Glen T
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 85
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Post by Glen T on Jun 14, 2012 1:26:58 GMT 12
Unsure, first I have heard. In what format? Drawings, pictures, or are they meaning the actual metal skin... ? Doubt the later if she hung around for another two years until the cutting torch and melting pot!!.. Amazingly short sighted of the NZ Govt of the day to decline the wish to have/buy/get her out to NZ as a memorial type effort. Esp as there had been several Lancasters pass thru NZ during or just after the war... Suppose we have to thank the French Navy for giving us NX665 in the 1960's.. I have just found a copy of the glossy book all about her ... a great read and many good piccs....... and to my knowledge, NE181 was the only ton up Lanc on 75(NZ) Sqn RAF.
Oh, and I will be visiting the cemetrey with Burtt's grave which I missed last year before the Kessel service I spoke at... so will say hi from us....
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 14, 2012 8:13:41 GMT 12
I don't know what form the nose art is meant to be in, I read it here for the first time in Dee's post on the previous page, Reply #16, where she said:
"The museum at Christchurch has the noseart from the Captains Fancy displayed... "
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Post by fwx on Jun 14, 2012 14:15:44 GMT 12
Hi Glen,
And thanks very much for the list of The Captains Fancy's op's from Jan 45 onwards.
I have a question with the info I've got:
1. Squadron ORB records RF129 JN-M flying on 19 Feb to Wesel (John Wood's crew, with my uncle Gerry Newey as W/Op)
2. Lancaster RF129 was coded AA-M, not JN-M.
3. Gerry's logbook records "JN-M" on 19 Feb.
With both ORB and logbook agreeing on the code, you would have to think that the serial no. in the ORB entry on 19 Feb is incorrect?
Could this be another op' for The Captain's Fancy?
By the way, have a great trip! Look forward to hearing how the memorial service and 75 reunion go. My cousin (Gerry's son) was planning to attend the reunion, so you may bump into him.
Cheers,
Chris
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Post by ianbw12 on Jun 25, 2012 18:51:34 GMT 12
Interesting about AA-C being listed in "Kiwis Can Fly" as PB132 - does anyone have a photo or similar to confirm the tie up between code and serial? The ORBs have this aircraft listed as AA-T; yet there is a photo in "Century of Aviation in NZ" showing both serial and codes as AA-X! PB132 is also mentioned as AA-Y 23/24.6.44 in Bombs on Target... The ORBS do have a PB418 listed as AA-C though (next serial on sqn after PB132 I think). Then again, ORB errors are well documented, although the photo is pretty compelling - it seems unlikley (?) that a Lanc with so many ops up would be re-coded? For such an important Lanc, its all a little murky!  Cheers, Ian |
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Post by fwx on Jun 25, 2012 21:58:44 GMT 12
Glen's away on much more important business, but I am still intrigued by the several mysteries around NE181, JN-M The Captain's Fancy.
Norman Franks in “Forever Strong” apparently has her 101st and final op' on 5 January 45.
Glen's list ends on 2 Feb, with 106 op's logged.
I have a logbook entry that says she also flew on 19 Feb, although (possibly incorrectly) recorded in the ORB as RF129 JN-M. (RF129 was AA-M, not JN-M)
But there is still Colin Emslie's logbook record of flying in NE181 JN-M on the 24 April, on the Squadron's last op' to Bad Oldesloe, piloted by Ed Ware. This info comes confirmed by the pilot, and with crew photos in front of the 'plane.
But if you look at the Ware/Emslie photos, taken after the final op', the mission markings are still at 101, whereas by then she must have flown at least 107, possibly 108!
Seems unlikely that the groundcrew would allow such a proud record to go un-marked for 3 months??
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 25, 2012 23:17:34 GMT 12
have little faith in Franks' "Forever Strong" book, it's full of errors. But could the missing bomb markings be because they were Mana missions. not air raids?
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Post by oggie2620 on Jun 25, 2012 23:56:22 GMT 12
Dave I have a picture from my visit to ChCh in 2010...Will have to dig it out and email it to you.. |
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Post by fwx on Jun 26, 2012 14:12:10 GMT 12
Hi Dave, Glen's list, up to 106 op's, are all bombing operations, as are the 19 Feb possible op' (to Wesel), and the 24 April definite op' (to Bad Oldesloe).
Any Manna trips and the recorded POW trips would be on top of these.
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Post by fwx on Jul 28, 2012 23:35:48 GMT 12
Just found this photo of NE181 The Captain's Fancy (credit to LAF-Forum, Hilary) which I hadn't seen before, showing what looks like 99 op's marked up, and with C Flight C/O S/L Jack Bailey (centre, back row) and crew.  As per Glen's list on the previous page, this a/c wasn't flown by S/L Bailey between op's on 27 Dec 44 and 11 Jan 45, ie., according to Franks, the period it passed the ton. On the date it flew no. 99 it was flown by Hannan (1 Jan) then Hannan again (unwittingly) for 100 (3 Jan), and then clocking up what they thought was the 100th, but on count-back found to be the 101st, with Simpson on 5 Jan. So was the above photo posed or what?? Just gets more confusing ...! |
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