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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 11, 2012 11:08:10 GMT 12
I can see that you are referring to the US view of the time, but I doubt most Americans even knew where NZ was, and they probably had no idea that the kiwis were giving a true blood and guts effort to winning the war lfor over two years before the Yanks even got into it. I doubt anyone in NZ would have wanted to just stand by idly and watch the Americans win the war for them, especially when NZ was directly under serious threat.
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Post by expatkiwi on Sept 11, 2012 11:10:57 GMT 12
As an addendum to the above, using the RNZAF's Corsairs postwar was not on (althought the Americans gave us dispensation to take 24 to Japan for occupation duties, and on cessation of such duties they were to be scrapped.) The Corsairs were supplied by the American taxpayer to assist the United States armed forces in the Pacific to beat and batter the Japanese all the way to Tokyo, although Fleet Admiral Ernest J King (CINCPAC) eventually confined our forces to former British territory. This general philosophy suited us and the Americans - we didn't have to pay for the aircraft, and every New Zealander lost on operations could be seen (in the New World) as one American life saved in the greater scheme of things. Might sound a little cynical, but America did not want NZ cheering from the side lines, they wanted a true blood and guts commitment, and NZ was happy to oblige. Strangley enough (to some modern eyes) the NZ Labour party was all for this at the time, as they were great fans of collective defence, and spreading of risk, etc., and considered it just a part of earning true statehood and international respect in those days when most Americans still thought NZ was a colony of GB. So the dream of maintaining a (small) carrier-centred fleet remained just that - it didn't stand a snowball's chance in a blast furnace. David D Considering how the U.S. Secretary of State hated the NZ Prime Minister at that time (over the Canberra Pact), this is a little surprising. In any case, I do believe that the aircraft carrier HMS EAGLE took our Corsairs to Japan. The EAGLE was a great idea: designed to be converted to a merchantman after being decommissioned from the Royal Navy. |
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Post by davidd on Sept 11, 2012 11:12:32 GMT 12
WHEW!! Managed to get this in before anybody else noticed!! The two cruisers used postwar by the RNZN were of course BLACK PRINCE and BELLONA!! Both were of course DIDO class! How embarrassing!
David D
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Post by davidd on Sept 11, 2012 11:39:22 GMT 12
14 Squadron and its Corsairs was conveyed to Japan aboard HMS GLORY, one of the Light Fleets (Colossus) class. Conversely EAGLE (laid down 1942, finally commissioned 1952 after some vacillation, 54,000 tons full load, largest ever British warship) and her sister ARK ROYAL, (laid down 1943, finally completed to a modified design, commissioned 1955 with angled deck, side lift, etc.) were very large Fleet Carriers. In fact none of the Royal Navy's Light Fleet or Fleet carriers of the WW2 era were designed nor suitable for conversion to merchant ships. They had heavily built high-speed hulls, were armoured, with fuel greedy steam turbines, and were heavily compartmentalised for survival purposes. In other words, purpose built high-speed warships. Are you perhaps thinking of the escort carriers ("Woolworth" carriers), which were all built on merchant hulls and machinery, and were eminently suitable for merchant service after removal of the flight decks and aviation fuel tanks, etc., and fitted with a proper full width bridge, funnels, etc.?
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 11, 2012 12:06:36 GMT 12
Agreed, it was HMS Glory, not HMS Eagle
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Post by davidd on Sept 11, 2012 12:22:32 GMT 12
Expatkiwi,
I can now see where you were coming from re the mercantile conversion idea - just checked one of my books, which seemed to back up your statements (this referred to the Colossus and Majestic classes.) However I (wisely) also checked another, more comprehensive work (Aircraft Carriers, WW2 Fact Files by David Brown, Macdonald and Jane's, 1977) which has this to say on the design:-
"Hull: The Light Fleets were built to mercantile hull standards - this has often been taken to mean that they were intended for post-war conversion as merchant ships but in fact this formula embraced only the structural strength and nature of the internal sub-division; designed from the keel up as carriers, the between-decks arrangements below the hangar deck and the warship machinery would have been totally unsuitable for any imaginable commercial use and the cost of reconstruction would have been prohibitive." This would explain comments in other references which stated that although these ships were "intended for postwar mercantile conversion", the author expressed surprise that, in fact, none had ever been so converted. However Mr Brown makes a monkey of my statement that these carriers were heavily compartmentalised and armoured, they were not; neverthess they did incorporate some cunning features to protect themselves from the hazards of torpedo strikes and subsequent flooding, although this protection was really quite minimal compared to true Fleet carriers. Also their turbines were quite small (nominal 40,000 SHP = 25 knots maximum), compared to 152,000 SHP = 31.5 knots for the larger fleet carriers of Ark Royal/Eagle type. This lower top speed, combined with their shorter overall length/runway made the light fleets unsuitable for postwar jet operations, although I recall that a Vampire was experimentally landed aboard such a ship (HMS OCEAN?).
David D
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Post by davidd on Sept 11, 2012 12:36:46 GMT 12
Speaking of angry politicians, I think it was John Curtin in Australia who never forgave New Zealand for NOT withdrawing its only battle-hardened infantry division (2nd Div) from the Middle East in early 1942 (as Australia had done) for local defence; he seemed to imagine that it showed lack of backbone and toadying (spelling?) to Churchill. However he never did figure out the true reasoning behind this decision, and neither did the NZ wartime population get it, as they were never told at the time. As is now well known, it was Churchill who pleaded for NZ to leave the Divisison in the western desert ("at a critical time in this campaign"), and sweeetened this with a promise that a brand new United States infantry division would be diverted to New Zealand in double quick time to placate the locals. This show of organisation and resources certainly impressed the NZ locals ("the US Marines have come to save us from those rotten yellow men "), although they did not realize that this was aresult of a hurried compromise at the highest level - moving a fully-equipped infantry division across the Pacific at short notice was no small thing in early 1942 when the Americans also felt vulnerable on their own Pacific coastline.
David D
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Post by expatkiwi on Sept 11, 2012 17:31:33 GMT 12
You were right. My bad. It was HMS GLORY.
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Post by meo4 on Sept 11, 2012 20:22:54 GMT 12
WHEW!! Managed to get this in before anybody else noticed!! The two cruisers used postwar by the RNZN were of course BLACK PRINCE and BELLONA!! Both were of course DIDO class! How embarrassing! David D Also HMNZS Royalist was the 3rd Dido and last cruiser to serve in RNZN decommisioned in 1966.  |
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Post by TS on Sept 12, 2012 9:28:04 GMT 12
Thats a good shot! looks like Milford Sound?
My Dad was on the Ballona as a P.O. and my Uncle was on the Black Prince. Got any more pics of either mainly the Ballona would be good.
Cheers
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 12, 2012 10:03:28 GMT 12
The Royal Navy converted at least one and I think a couple of its smaller carriers into cargo/troop ships near the end of the war. One of them brought home a substantial number of kiwis from the war. It was the first British carrier to visit New Zealand I believe.
That compromise by Churchill regarding the Division seems to me to have been the perfect solution. New Zealand got adequately protected by the US Marine Division, whilst the NZ 2nd Division stayed in the front lines of the battle rather than come home for garrison duties. If the kiwis had been brought home, who knows what may have happened in the desert war as they were at the forefront of the battles and their presence was quite pinacle in the way the battles went on many occasions.
But what is always forgotten is that while the 2nd NZ Division didn't come home and the Marine Division showed up in mid 1942, that latter division was not NZ's only army defence. There was a very large standing Army in NZ as well, many men who had signed up as early as 1940 were still in camp training in 1943. Virtually every racecourse, showground, park and large open space in eavery town around the country had a New Zealand Army unit on it. They spent all their time route marching, weapons training, bush hiking, doing explosives courses, doing special weapons courses, doing commando courses, guarding vital positions and much more.
It was from these thousands of men, most of them youngh and very fit, and very keen to get overseas, that the 2nd Div and the 3rd Div drew its reinforcements from. And from mid-1943 onwards, at a point when the Japanese were no longer the close menace that they had been, these men were taken in greater and greater numbers across to Maadi Camp where they trained up and joined the 2nd NZ Division. Even a substantial number of the 3rd Div transferred to the 2nd Div. And they went into Italy and took on the Germans in NZ's biggest land battle of the war. But at no time was NZ left without a standing Army here, bringing back the 2nd Division would have probably been a huge strain on the nation just to accommodate and feed them all. Churchill, Fraser and Roosevelt made completely the right decision.
No doubt the Aussie PM wanted the NZ Div in New Guinea, not NZ, but the Aussies and Americans handled pushing back the Japanese there pretty well anyway. Plus the Third Div here in NZ were actually trained specifically to join that battle, they did exercises in the Kaimai Ranges with New Guinea fully in mind, so if anyone whent there it wouldn't have been the 2nd Div, I think it would have been 3rd Div men.
NZ also had 100,000 Home Guards defending NZ. When your population is just over a million, that's a substantial force, combined with all the Army units here, and the Marines, and the RNZAF and RNZN. A Japanese invading force would have probably met their match compared with many countries they walked into.
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Post by meo4 on Sept 12, 2012 17:31:12 GMT 12
   HMNZS Bellona in Tasman exercising with RAN Aircraft off HMAS Sydney. Other pic looks like Bellona pulling up to Garden Island Naval Base. |
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Post by TS on Sept 12, 2012 20:16:55 GMT 12
Hey meo4 thank you very much for sharing those pics of the Bellona what year would that have been? I think my Dad was on board around mid 50s up to Korea as Chief Stoker. I think I was incorrect in saying he was a P.O. in the previous post......( may have the years wrong here sorry)  But really enjoying seeing these pics all the same.. ;D |
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Post by planecrazy on Sept 13, 2012 9:04:59 GMT 12
Love the pic with the RAN Sea Furys over the top, the RAN received their first Sea Furys in 1947 so the pic must be post this date. Here is a pic of one visiting my little corner of the world. A Bagdad Fury flown by Grant Beil at the time of its visit. Currently in the care of the Australian Federal Police if I got it right.  Sorry for the mini thread hi-jack love the Fury! |
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Post by davidd on Sept 13, 2012 19:03:00 GMT 12
Also enjoyng the photos of the cruisers (and the Sea Furys!)
David D
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Post by davidd on Sept 17, 2012 10:19:40 GMT 12
Dave H,
You are perfectly correct about NZ having a large standing land foce in NZ throughout much of WW2, and especially in 1942 when the big invasion scare was on. This force comprised the 1st, 3rd and 4th Divisions made up as you suggest mostly from those young soldiers under 21 who could not be sent overseas, as well as a good stiffening of the old soldiers from WW1 and back in uniform, often with corporal and sergeant's stripes. When the 3rd Div was sent to New Caledonia in late 1942 it was replaced in NZ by the newly raised 5th Division. Of course civilians in NZ never heard of these formations (top secret), although they heard plenty about the overseas formations (often slightly disguised as the 2nd NZEF), although the presence of these large numbers of men in Army uniforms wandering around the NZ countryside, living under grandstands at racecourses or sports grounds in small provincial and country towns and sleeping on straw palliasses, and marching about down just about every country road in the country to toughen them up can hardly have been missed by the locals. General knowledge of all the restricted areas in NZ where civilians were not supposed to go, such as the "fortress" areas near the largest cities, all the headlands leading up to the major harbours with their attendant checkpoints (GVP, or "Guards at Vital Points"), would hardly have been missed by the average citizen, ditto many of the large and open beaches near majot towns and citie, or the restruictions placed on local fishermen around harbours and the big minefields installed in certain locations. However I suppose that most civilians still believed that the only "real" soldiers that NZ possessed were all overseas, I mean the newspapers and weekly movie news items must have been saturated with them. My dad, before he transferred to the RNZAF in January 1943 was a (not very happy) member of this NZ home force, camped out at Rangiora or Stewarts Gully I believe, with his long bayonet banging against his leg when they had to run across country, SMLE at the ready. I gathered from him that the locals often reminded them they were not "real" soldiers, something they did not really need to know or hear at that impressionable age! This army was supposed to be the front line against the expected (believed imminent by many) invasion of course, in view of the non-return of the battle hardened types in the desert. The NZ Govt was also somewhat non-plussed of course when the American commanders informed them (on arrival in Wellington) that it was not THEIR job to defend New Zealand directly; they were here to pepare for offensive operations against the Japanese in the Solomon Islands, and their stay here was consequently very short. This of course was the 1st US Marine Division.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 17, 2012 10:53:27 GMT 12
Spot on there David. Yet even till this day the public still gets told by the media that the Americans came here to protect NZ while our Army was all overseas. Pah!
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Post by davidd on Sept 19, 2012 20:51:19 GMT 12
Whatever the exact facts, the line that the US Marines were sent here to protect us went down well with the ladies! And it all fitted together quite well; Churchill kept "his" 2nd NZ Div in the front line, and the 1st US Marine Div went north to sort out the Sons Of Nippon at Guadalcanal, an island that all NZers had an intens interest in at the time.
David D
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