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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Aug 20, 2012 9:23:53 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 20, 2012 9:30:25 GMT 12
Wow, what a really sad and tragic time for the NZDF, losing five people in such a short time from the same team. My condolences to families and friends.
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Post by ngatimozart on Aug 20, 2012 13:39:13 GMT 12
My & my whanaus condolences to the whanau, friends and to their brothers and sisters in arms. May they RIP. Arohanui and kia kaha.
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Post by skiddly on Aug 20, 2012 14:36:42 GMT 12
Our thoughts are with their families and their fellow soldiers still on the ground in Afghan. 2/1 RNZIR Kura Takahi Puni. Lest we forget
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Post by Andy Wright on Aug 20, 2012 15:17:34 GMT 12
Rest in peace, good people.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 21, 2012 15:39:16 GMT 12
I don't mean to detract from this thread at all but I am wondering, is Jacinda Baker the first New Zealand Army female killed on the front lines ever? Or did the NZ Army lose any nurses in WWII on the lines or to enemy action?
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Post by Naki on Aug 21, 2012 16:25:41 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 21, 2012 16:45:55 GMT 12
Thanks Paul.
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Post by obiwan27 on Aug 21, 2012 21:32:29 GMT 12
RIP and condolences to all families of the fallen.
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Post by baronbeeza on Aug 21, 2012 22:15:41 GMT 12
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Post by ngatimozart on Aug 23, 2012 20:16:50 GMT 12
There has been an ongoing discussion in the media and elsewhere about the lack of MRAP vehicles for our people in Bamiyan and their use of the Hummvees. Some of this discussion has centred around comments made by serviing soldiers in online social media and elsewhere. Some comments made by ex servicemen accuse pollies and senior defence personnel covering their arses and senior defence personnel of being to timid to force issue with NZG because they want to secure their retirement benefits and I think would reflect the serving soldiers views. From what I understand the NZDF funding for Afghanistan had been capped end of story. So even though seeing the need they could not nor cannot go to the ADF and buy say 10 Bushmasters at AU$600K each, which would have been the ideal solution. Given that Uncle helen set the operation up to look soft in 2003 and Bamiyan was seen as a soft spot by the then NZG, purchasing MRAPs would have been a no no. Having said that, apparently the early model MRAPs were top heavy and prone to rollover when off road so wouldn't've suited the Kiwis. However that has since changed and the Aussies have a whole pile of brand new ones sitting in Australia waiting to be allocated to units, which meant if we'd had asked for 10 and stumped up the coin we'd had them on a plane into Bamiyan in double quick time. To put this bluntly, the NZGs decision not to buy MRAPs when they were / are clearly available has cost this country the lives of five soldiers. They would have known that there would have been an increased threat after the SAS and other SFs caught up with the group that killed Lt O'Donnell, because that would have focussed the Talibans attention on Bamiyan. Our PRT have what, eight months left there and how many more will die because the NZG is too tight arsed to spend AU$6 million buying 10 Bushmaster MRAPs straight off the lot. Yes they will look like that they have sent our people out in tin coffins, but whats pride against a life of servicemen and woman in a combat zone.
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Post by steveh on Aug 25, 2012 15:12:47 GMT 12
I wonder if this was why John Key was so quick to make the point that the bomb that killed these latest casualties was HUGE & no vehicle could have withstood it? Then again maybe its just me being a tiny bit cynical. I have to admit to being well choked up watching on the news last night the pictures of the loading ramp ceremony as the coffins arrived home. The shots of Lance Corporal Bakers coffin being carried by fellow servicewomen was , to me, especially poignant. With the ramping up in activity in Bamiyan, I wonder how many more of these are to come? Steve.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Aug 25, 2012 18:46:37 GMT 12
The Bushmaster offers excellent protection but laden it weighs over 14 tonne while a laden M1114 HMMWV is closer to 5 1/2 tonne. Unfortunately due to the terrain in the areas Kiwi troops use Hummers it is NOT an ideal solution due to its size and weight.
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Post by ngatimozart on Aug 25, 2012 20:45:14 GMT 12
The Bushmaster offers excellent protection but laden it weighs over 14 tonne while a laden M1114 HMMWV is closer to 5 1/2 tonne. Unfortunately due to the terrain in the areas Kiwi troops use Hummers it is NOT an ideal solution due to its size and weight. They are apparently using NZLAVs in the area and they are 22 tonne. It's not the weight issue. Thats pure rubbish. The real reason is purely money. The Bushmaster is used for off road and has been suggested that it has the capability for the areas we operate in. It is pretty sad when the US military will not send their own troops out in the armoured hummers precisely because of IEDs, yet our people are sent out in them standing into danger. Another thing the issue with the NZLAV is that it does not have a V shaped hull on a moncoque chassis, so our people don't have a lot of protection from IEDs.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Aug 26, 2012 11:23:59 GMT 12
I disagree with your conclusions but as they are only based on press and social media commentary I can understand why you have reached them.
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 26, 2012 15:59:39 GMT 12
First off I’m an ex NZ Tankie, now serving in a foreign defence force but no longer a Tankie but doing something better that NZDF couldn’t provide, 2: I’ve to be careful in what I say as we use the Bushmaster and 3: I have crossed paths with a number of people here via Uncle who is still serving in the RNZAF and he is very well known within RNZAF and overseas (he’s not pilot). Ngatimozat, I fully agree what you have said here; also the other place you lurk at and your contacts are very well informed. We have using the Bushmaster (PMV) very successfully in the MEAO for years now, this rubbish that the Bushes are not suited for the Bramyin AO is cop out. The Chorai Valley where our main effort is in roads are a lot worst, but thanks to NZ media the NZ public, pollies and few here have taken hook line and sinker . The Bushmaster V shape hull is double hull which means it can take a lot of punishment with the crew/ troops surviving the IED blasts. Two of my lads did a service transfer to the Cav about 3 yrs ago and one of the lads was caught in IED where the PMV was writed off with my mate and his crew commander surviving. An Ex Assault Engineer who I work with was there went it off said the one of the wheel (they weigh 200kg each) and a part of engine block was found 200m from point of detonation and they estimated the force of the explosion was about 250kg that was stuff into culvert. Of all of the IED’s that have involved the Bushmaster about 5 or 6 have been BER with the cost of no KIA’s. When the Dutch and British Armies put out a UOR for the Bushmaster the Australian Government order the Dept. of Defence to divert the RAAF Airfield Defence Sqns PMV’s and Army PMV’s to the Dutch and Brit Armies so why didn’t NZ Government ask the Australian The British built Massif is the next best thing but it’s a monster and like most things the brits build its over engineer but its hell alot better than MRAP.
The MRAP is a preice of rubbish in my opinion and I’ll tell you why: 1.Has a very high centre of gravity, I almost seen one roll over at a Kuwait Airbase 2.The underside armour plate is a 15deg or less. 3.Its looks like someone got a unimog body and the bolted F350 cab to it and then added a armoured troop carrying cab to it.
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 26, 2012 16:06:39 GMT 12
MRAP at a Kuwait AFB fitted with IED ECM's. I'm about 172cm high and my shoulder is level with the cab door Attachments:
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 26, 2012 16:10:34 GMT 12
Dutch PMV Bushmaster fitted a Remote Weapon Station armed with .50cal HMG. Attachments:
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 26, 2012 16:18:25 GMT 12
A MRAP in the Gan inside the FOB at speed, I not see a single Hummer at this base. This base had a US Army Air CAV battle Group and a US Army Spec Ops Group plus the Dutch and us. Attachments:
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Post by corsair67 on Aug 26, 2012 16:41:52 GMT 12
Meh, who needs a MRAP, when you can have a stock-standard white Hi-Lux! Those MRAPs look pretty damn good - but at approx. US$500 000 per vehicle, they might be out of NZ's price range a wee bit. Maybe the NZ Army should have thought of buying a mixed fleet of armoured vehicles, rather than just 105 LAVS?
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