Hat identification

[Max Kirk]

Hi ,
can anyone identify this hat ?
Thanks

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[Max Kirk]

close up

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[Max Kirk]

flat brim

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[Dave Homewood]

Well the badge is RNZAF (WWII era by the look of it) but in my non-expert opinion it does not fit the hat which looks to be a New Zealand Mounted Rifles hat from perhaps the 1930's or before then, maybe WWI.

I cannot imagine any rerason why the RNZAF would issue such a hat to an airman - but maybe it is a genuine RNZAF issue for some specific, rarely photographed unit??

[strikemaster]

The badge is WWII RNZAF. The hat is odd, it looks like an Akubra. I'd guess Aussie hat, Kiwi badge. Where did you get it?



Kiwi hats had a different puggaree.

[Max Kirk]

Hi gents ,
The photos were posted on another forum for collectors and sellers . That person was asking about the badge .
The bulk of the 'experts' there reckon that it is a WW2 Kiwi hat for NZers in the RAF.
If it is , its be the only one I have been able find on the net

If my research is correct , I have found that the hat is Aussie made for the RAF and the puggaree is RAF as is the flash .
The RAF Regiment apparently.

Its the Kiwi badge that has me suspicious .
Why would an NZRAF bloke serve as an RAF soldier ?
A Kiwi who signs up in England and joins as a soldier in the RAf Regt. would serve as RAF and wear that badge .

Didn't our army do airfield defense in the Pacific ?
Did we even had NZRAF infantry units ?
Not that that explains a British bush hat from the Middle East and Far East commands having an NZRAF badge attached to it .

Max

[ngatimozart]

The badge appears to be the same we were issued in 1974 and up until about 1978 when the anodised ones came in. They were brass and a pain. You could tell old timers by the state of their cap badge - smooth and thin from polishing over time with Brasso. Looks like someone is trying to do a ripoff. There's a discussion on Flypast about one fulla who sells stuff barnd new from aircraft wrecks in pomland. Such things as Battle of Britain piston rod from Hurricane RR Merlin "genuine very rare" that actually comes from a radial engine. ;D Wonder if it's the same fulla?

[Max Kirk]

NgatiMozart ,
Did I read you right ?
That particular badge could not have been issued before 1974 ? or was it available in WW2 ?

[phil82]

The RAF Regiment didn't come into being until 1942, though there were RAF Armoured Car Companies doing airfield and 'ground defence' in the 1920s.

[Max Kirk]

It seems that the hat is dated 1943 on the inner band.

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[Max Kirk]

This is from a Reenactors website .
If they have done their homework , this is sort of how the old hat looked in 1943.
soldierblue.homestead.com/uniforms.html

Although to me the new hat itself looks more like an NZ Mounted Rifles hat than an Aussie infantry bash hat , but thats just me

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[aircraftclocks]

When I served, I got an old brass one (a kings crown type, like the one in question) and had it gold plated. It looked far better that the plastic ones issued in the 80's. I only wore it on my FS cap not my SD.

[Max Kirk]

Jan 29, 2013 18:59:22 GMT 12 aircraftclocks said:

When I served, I got an old brass one (a kings crown type, like the one in question) and had it gold plated. It looked far better that the plastic ones issued in the 80's. I only wore it on my FS cap not my SD.

What year was that please ?
Was it between 1943 and 1946 or thereabouts ?

[aircraftclocks]

I served in the 80's. Given that the current monarch has reigned since 1953, my cap badge is of a date before then.

[Dave Homewood]

Max, if the hat is genuine and the wearer was a New Zealander in the RAF, he would not have an RNZAF badge. they were only for RNZAF personnel, and a kiwi in the ROyal Air Force was not entitled.

However he could have been an RNZAF members ATTACHED to the RAF (around 10,500 RNZAF personnel were attached to the RAF).

The latter scenario would actually make sense of this guy was attached to a squadron in the far east. Many kiwis flew in fighters, bombers, transports and other types in the Burma campaign, for example. It is quite possible that under local condituons the men were issued with Army style hats as they were more suitable in the condisitions (heat, humidity, sunshine, etc.) The hat may have come from RAF Regiment stores but the wearer was a pilot or aircrew and was actually in the RNZAF.

Is there a name in the hat?

And yes I am sure that's a WWII era badge. Forget the suggestion of 1974 onwards, it's a red herring.

[ngatimozart]

Jan 29, 2013 18:03:10 GMT 12 Max Kirk said:

NgatiMozart ,
Did I read you right ?
That particular badge could not have been issued before 1974 ? or was it available in WW2 ?

No. I am not. I need to have a look at the back of the badge to be sure. If it is just two pins with a sleeve over top then it is an anodised one. The old badges were brass and, going from memory, had two eyes that you had to put clip through.

[strikemaster]

The badge looks identical to my Grandfathers, his was 1940's issue. I could take a pic if you like?

There is another way this may have come about, Kiwis had a fine reputation for making do with what ever they could pilfer. The owner of this may have procured it to suit his needs. Its definitely not a lemon squeezer, the shape is wrong for that, even with a fore aft bash. Besides, the dome is a give away. Most hats of that era would have had the manufacturers stamp in them too, any sign of one?

[Max Kirk]

Jan 30, 2013 1:48:37 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Max, if the hat is genuine and the wearer was a New Zealander in the RAF, he would not have an RNZAF badge. they were only for RNZAF personnel, and a kiwi in the ROyal Air Force was not entitled.

However he could have been an RNZAF members ATTACHED to the RAF (around 10,500 RNZAF personnel were attached to the RAF).

The latter scenario would actually make sense of this guy was attached to a squadron in the far east. Many kiwis flew in fighters, bombers, transports and other types in the Burma campaign, for example. It is quite possible that under local condituons the men were issued with Army style hats as they were more suitable in the condisitions (heat, humidity, sunshine, etc.) The hat may have come from RAF Regiment stores but the wearer was a pilot or aircrew and was actually in the RNZAF.

Is there a name in the hat?

And yes I am sure that's a WWII era badge. Forget the suggestion of 1974 onwards, it's a red herring.

Dave ,
I have no idea if there is a name , or a number or anything at all written on the inside or the outside of the hat .
I have just seen the photos .

I know that our blokes were attached to the RAF , I have a family member who was in 75 Squadron ( and the French Marquis for about six months ) , and I know that our blokes flew the Burma routes , a mates dad did that .
They had no photos , and made no mention of wearing English bush hats , or Raf flashes with their RNZAF badge .

What makes me suspicious , is the attitude of the person on the British and Commonwealth badge forum who's thread it is , and the attitude of his mates , about the subject of how the hat , the flash , and the badge all came together .

From the outset , the attitude was , once it was confirmed to them by someone that it was an RNZAF badge , a 'rare badge' ?? , and therefore worth a bit , was , .... what does it matter ..... of course Kiwis wore slouch hats like that .... the NZers got their uniforms from all the other countries ..... etc .
Go figure eh .


I am the one who eventually established that it is an RAF Regiment hat ( or look alike ..... ) and even for that I was abused with ridicule .
All of that has had me thinking that there is a scam going on , and the hat is not quite for real .

Enthusiastic collectors are happy to to have history and provenance for their collection .
Apparently those who are selling stuff , don't give a stuff .

Max

[Max Kirk]

Jan 30, 2013 14:11:08 GMT 12 strikemaster said:

The badge looks identical to my Grandfathers, his was 1940's issue. I could take a pic if you like?

There is another way this may have come about, Kiwis had a fine reputation for making do with what ever they could pilfer. The owner of this may have procured it to suit his needs. Its definitely not a lemon squeezer, the shape is wrong for that, even with a fore aft bash. Besides, the dome is a give away. Most hats of that era would have had the manufacturers stamp in them too, any sign of one?

Looking at the photos that I downloaded from the forum where the seller posted them , and then I posted on this thread , will hopefully answer all of your questions .

Max

[camtech]

The badge has the King's crown so could have been issued up til mid 50's at least. I joined in 65 and was issued with a Quenn's crown brass version. Later badges were plastic.