Why were kiwi soldiers so good?

[chinapilot]

Dave...saw that thread but it's heresay stuff.

[Dave Homewood]

Yep, agreed, I was just pointing out people had tried to find some basis to it before on here and failed too.

[No longer identifiable]

Feb 26, 2013 18:06:24 GMT 12 phil82 said:

Indians: “Well-disciplined and correct” professional soldiers.

Colin, that is, I think, the first time I've ever seen Indians specifically mentioned in any war history (mind you, I've not read a huge amount of war history). It's true that war history is largely written by the victors, but although the Indians fought on the allied side I never seem them mentioned except as almost an afterthought. Is there any obvious reason for this? Were they conscripted, or were most professional soldiers? (sorry, a bit off-topic I know).

[Dave Homewood]

The Indian Army played a huge part in not only the North African campaign but also Italy. Indian units were attached to the New Zealand Division bringing it up to such a great strength that through the Cassino campaign they formed the New Zealand Corps. This was the only time a New Zealand Corps existed.

There were also Indian troops in Singapore, many of whom switched sides and began to fight with the Japanese when they saw that the country was lost!

And of course Indians also fought the Japanese bigtime with the British 14th Army and the US troops in Burma and India.

The reason that you see little about Indian troops nowadays maybe because in 1947 they Indian Army was at the forefront of the revolt against the British Empire, seeing Briatin's 200 year rule of their country overthrown. I am not certain if this is the actual reason but I suggest it as a possible one - they were certainly on the outer for some time. Like the South Africans.

Another country the contributed to the war effort and also suffered first hand from bombing but almost never gets a mention is Ceylon.

[Luther Moore]

Here are some Indian soldiers learning how to load an RNZAF Corsairs guns,the plane is the one my Uncle died in.

[phil82]

India came into the Second World War by default really. There was a combination of events which led to Indian involvement, not the least of which was the threat of invasion! In the end, Churchill in effect offered India independence after the war in return for cooperation now!It could have gone the other way! There were Indian politicians advocating siding with Germany and Japan as a means of getting the British out of India. In fact, a considerable number of Indian troops captured in Singapore turned to the Japanese and became guards.

[Dave Homewood]

Interesting photo there Luther, and rather sobering when it has that personal connection too.

[richard1098]

Feb 22, 2013 15:05:03 GMT 12 hoffies said:

sup guys Australian here

I'm trying to figure out why kiwis were such an effective combat force (both WW1 and WW2 but particularly the latter). From what I understand they were on par with Australians, or perhaps even better if Rommel is to be believed (apparently he regarded kiwis as his finest opponents).

Not sure I agree with the premise of the whole question. How can you objectively compare Aus forces facing the Japanese in PNG, Kiwi troops in North Africa, Soviet troops during the Battles of Leningrad or Berlin, and US troops at D-Day, for example? Different conditions and training, different scales and capabilities, and vastly different strategic objectives of and constraints on their armies.

And without actually having been there....? Perhaps its more appropriate to simply remember their courage and sacrifice.

[davidd]

I greatly doubt that they are Indian troops looking at the RNZAF Corsair being re-armed on Bougainville Luther - what makes you believe these are Indian troops? I am 99.999% certain that these are Australians, which in 1945 were crawling all over Bougainville and frequently hung around the air strips when not actually engaged on "active operations" at the front line. I am 100% certain that no India troops (Indian Army that is) were ever deployed to Bougainville, they were far too busy in the India/Burma theatre (as well as Western Desert, etc.) However I cannot guarantee that the Australian Army did not include numbers of Australian nationalised men of Indian descent.
David D

[Luther Moore]

Here you go Davidd.......http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/077696/



ID number
077696
Object type
Black & white
Physical description
Black & white
Collection
Photograph
Description

BOUGAINVILLE ISLAND. 1944-12-23. LEADING AIRCRAFTMAN W. FISH AND LEADING AIRCRAFTMAN L.C. INGRAM SHOWING TROOPS OF THE 1ST INDIAN HEAVY ANTI-AIRCRAFT REGIMENT THE MECHANISM OF THE MACHINE GUNS FITTED IN THE WINGS OF A CHANCE-VOUGHT "CORSAIR" FIGHTER AIRCRAFT OF NO. 16 SQUADRON, ROYAL NEW ZEALAND AIR FORCE AT PIVA STRIP. THESE TROOPS WERE CAPTURED BY THE JAPANESE IN SINGAPORE IN FEBRUARY 1942. RECENTLY THEY EVADED THEIR GUARDS AND, WITH THE AID OF A FRIENDLY NATIVE MADE THEIR WAY TO THE AUSTRALIAN LINES.

[phil82]

I find that I can't subscribe to the view that some nationalities troops were better than others.We're talking here about national characteristics which do have a bearing on how people perform in extreme danger, but I think you will find in many cases, fighting troops were selected almost with indifference as long as they were amenable to training to fight.

The common theme of all armies had three main aims: to rid the conscript of pre-conceived notions about his 'rights' and personal freedom,to familiarise him with with the weapons he was most likely to use,and to try and give some idea of the noise and confusion of battle.

In the end, the PBI, or "poor bloody infantry" didn't fight for any grand cause, he fought for the guy standing next to him, and that applies across the board, to any nationality.

[davidd]

Luther,
Now THAT is an answer RIGHT out of LEFT FIELD! It sounds as though they were taken prisoner in Singapore, must have been taken to Bougainville by the Japanese Army as labourers, then escaped and crossed into the Australian lines. However it seems strange that they would suddenly appear as an Indian Army anti-aircraft unit in Bougainville, unless there were a reasonable number of Indians involved in this escapade and the Australian Army decided to equip them as a national unit operating under Australian administration. A very strange story, I never saw that one coming, but hey!! They have really new looking Aussie hats! I wonder if there is anything about them in the official Australian WW2 histories? I guess that sort of thing happened a lot in the Philippines and in various parts of Europe as the war progressed, with prisoners escaping as the tide turned against their captors. However this is quite different from an Indian unit being shipped way down south of the equator to assist the USA, Australia and NZ to clear the Japanese from Bougainville. Some very strange events unfold at times.
David D

[Luther Moore]

May 14, 2013 16:56:51 GMT 12 davidd said:

Luther,
Now THAT is an answer RIGHT out of LEFT FIELD! It sounds as though they were taken prisoner in Singapore, must have been taken to Bougainville by the Japanese Army as labourers, then escaped and crossed into the Australian lines. However it seems strange that they would suddenly appear as an Indian Army anti-aircraft unit in Bougainville, unless there were a reasonable number of Indians involved in this escapade and the Australian Army decided to equip them as a national unit operating under Australian administration. A very strange story, I never saw that one coming, but hey!! They have really new looking Aussie hats! I wonder if there is anything about them in the official Australian WW2 histories? I guess that sort of thing happened a lot in the Philippines and in various parts of Europe as the war progressed, with prisoners escaping as the tide turned against their captors. However this is quite different from an Indian unit being shipped way down south of the equator to assist the USA, Australia and NZ to clear the Japanese from Bougainville. Some very strange events unfold at times.
David D

It's not very often that I surprise someone with an answer

Seems strange that Aussies were teaching them the ropes of a Corsair when the Aussies didn't use Corsairs,maybe training them for ground crew jobs to help the RNZAF?

[davidd]

Luther,
I don't think that they are RAAF mechanics on "our" Corsairs, they would be members of our mob! Their work clothing of course gives no clues as to nationality whatsoever (unless you can read their i/d discs!), typical of such personnel in tropical areas. The Aussies had a Boomerang squadron at Piva strip, plus a small AOP Flight of Auster Mk. IIIs at a small strip called Bosley field, a few Dakotas for supply dropping to Australian troops operating in no-man's land, and a few of those strange creatures known as "Beafreighters" (modified Beauforts). Could not say definitely that RAAF technical staff NEVER worked on RNZAF aircraft, but it would be highly unusual and would have been for a very good reason should it ever have occurred. I have never come across any mention of RAAF technical staff being attached to any RNZAF Servicing unit at Bougainville (or anywhere else for that matter) for any reason, and can think of no reason why they would be attached. Remember that official photographers would take pictures of various nationalities working and relaxing in the forward areas with their Allies, as well as their equipment, so to have Australian Army photographers "snapping" RNZAF activities would have been not unexpected. Unusual, I must admit, was the recording of names of "foreign" personnel in photos for possible use in captioning - perhaps they initially assumed they were Australians! And reason the Indians were taking an interest in our Corsairs? Probably just natural curiosity during their time off duty - I doubt they they were considering a transfer to the RNZAF, but I could be wrong.
David D