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Post by FlyNavy on Jun 8, 2007 1:15:23 GMT 12
RobinK thanks for that info. My RAN history book suggests that 13 RNZAF pilots served with No.9 Sqdn (in Vietnam). But it does not provide further details about that aspect. Elsewhere it is noted that all remaining No.9 Sqdn helicopters were returned to Australia on the 'Vung Tau' Ferry - HMAS Sydney - in Dec 1971. Phil.
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RobinK
Warrant Officer
Posts: 36
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Post by RobinK on Jun 8, 2007 9:20:26 GMT 12
I can remember landing aboard the regular visitor HMAS Sydney at Vung Tau, on more than one occasion. Sitting on her deck in my helicopter I couldn't help but wonder what had made others accept the challenge of operating fixed-wing aircraft off such a tiny space!
The total of RNZAF pilots loaned to No 9 Sqn in Viet Nam was sixteen. A few of the early ones did a 6-month tour; the remainder 12 months. Five of them were decorated for gallantry on active service; two were Mentioned in Dispatches.
A seventeenth was killed in a flying accident with No 5 Sqn at Fairbairn during workup training. Initially the RAAF had insisted that RNZAF pilots be processed through 5 Sqn before being accepted by 9 Sqn in Viet Nam. We always thought this must have something to do with anticipated language difficulties probably based on nothing more substantial than how to pronounce the letter “i”! All said and done, however, after a few such “retreads” in the early days, everybody else went direct from 3 Sqn RNZAF at Hobsonville to 9 Sqn RAAF at Vung Tau.
In addition to these Air Force pilots, seven New Zealand Army helicopter pilots from No 3 Sqn RNZAF also served operationally in Vietnam, most with No 161 Reconnaissance Flight of Australian Army Aviation in LOH, but some (two, I think) with US Army units flying UH1s. Two of these seven were decorated.
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Post by FlyNavy on Jun 8, 2007 9:34:52 GMT 12
Edward "Ted" Collett died with Ian? "Huggy Bear" (don't ask) McLean in an Iroquois crash near Canberra in 1969; "mast bumping" at low-level was the cause I believe. Glad this problem was fixed but after a second crash? Mike Herbert died in Vietnam in a Canberra bomber later. All from my RAAF Pilot course No.67. Not sure if at some early stage some of our the RAN pilots did some training at Fairbairn but certainly most training was done at Nowra in our Iroquois there. Can't imagine myself what it was like landing on a straight deck with wires & barriers (and aircraft, if latter missed) to bring one to a halt. LSOs of that era did a great job to get pilots safely on deck when they could not see it (due to engine obstructing the view) until the last seconds but by then it was "cut" the engine and assume the landing attitude. And pray. :-) files.filefront.com/FuryFireFlyCatsSydneyHiQmywmv/;7720450;;/fileinfo.htmlOR hosted.filefront.com/SpazSinbad/ (Click on the "Files" tab) Above is the URL for a 6.7Mb (.WMV video 1 minute 44sec clip low quality greyscale) download of Sea Furies and Fireflys operating from HMAS Sydney (mostly) landings are shown on straight deck SYDNEY with the LSO doing his thing.
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RobinK
Warrant Officer
Posts: 36
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Post by RobinK on Jun 8, 2007 10:03:58 GMT 12
January 1969. Mast bumping. Sounds like the same accident.
Our man was Flt Lt Bill Waterhouse, 25. He was at the time the only Maori helicopter pilot in the RNZAF. Loss deeply felt.
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Post by FlyNavy on Jun 8, 2007 10:10:26 GMT 12
Sorry to read about your Maori pilot loss. Did not know that until now. I guess it takes a while for causes of accidents to be known and fixed. Information below here from www.adf-serials.com website under the 'RAAF Series 3' then Iroquois at top of table. "Served with 5 Sqn. Crashed 29/01/69, Fairbairn ACT. Main rotor separated in mid-flight during simulated IF training and crashed at Mt Molongo, 20nm East of Canberra, ACT. Crew; FLGOFF R. Enders & FLTLT W A (Bill) Waterhouse (RNZAF). Flt LT Waterhouse was New Zealand's only Maori helicopter pilot at that time and was on a training exercise prior to going to Vung Tao Vietnam and was the Co-pilot for this flight. A2-386 crashed 2 months later in similar circumstances." "Crashed 02/04/69, Captains Flat NSW. Main rotor separated in mid-flight and crashed at Captain's Flat, NSW. Crew; PLTOFF E. Collett, (Pilot) & FLGOFF I. McLean. This was 2 months after the crash of A2-719 in similar circumstances."
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Post by FlyNavy on Jun 8, 2007 12:11:24 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 8, 2007 14:52:03 GMT 12
The RNZAF pilots who served in Vietnam with No. 9 Squadron RAAF, according to Portrait of an Air Force by Bentley and Conly, were:
Sqn Ldr G.C. Derby Sqn Ldr R.J. Klitscher Sqn Ldr J.L. A. Pendreigh Flt Lt I. McG. Clark Flt Lt J.B. Clements Flt Lt E.Y. Creelman Flt Lt A.R. Mills Flt Lt G.A. Oldfield Flt Lt D.I. Paterson Flt Lt C.R.J. Peters Flt Lt G.L. Wood Fg Off I.G. Brunton Fg Off T.K. Butler Fg Off J.D. Peterson Fg Off B.H. Senn Fg Off K. J. Wells
I assume G.L. Wood would be Gordon Wood, who was Wigram's last base commander.
Robin, I know a chap here in Cambridge who told me some years ago he flew helicopters in Vietnam. His name is Bill McMillan. He said he joined the RNZAF as a Flight Engineer and then went through some special programme they offered to some Flt Eng's to train as pilots. He reckoned he flew Iroquois with the RAAF there. He seemed fairly genuine about it, yet he does not appear on this list. Have you heard of him? Any idea whether he's telling the truth or if it's a line shoot?
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Post by corsair67 on Jun 8, 2007 15:24:38 GMT 12
Robin, thanks for the 9SQN history. I'd always wondered why the crest featured an Albatross. I'd hate to have gone from 5SQN in Canberra during Winter to 9SQN at Vung Tau! Have recently read a book called Shockwave by Peter Haran about 9SQN's Albatross and Bushranger operations in Vietnam. I assume the "Kiwi Peters" mentioned in this book is Flt Lt C R J Peters?
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RobinK
Warrant Officer
Posts: 36
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Post by RobinK on Jun 8, 2007 19:39:23 GMT 12
I know of no Bill McMillan, RNZAF or otherwise. I've also checked the 9 Sqn Association Web site – there is a nominal roll accessible to members – and the name McMillan is not in it. I suspect wannabe. They do happen.
It is the case, however, that the RAAF did have a scheme that trained selected engineer officers as pilots. The logic was sound enough - it was thought to be a good thing to have qualified engineers whose expertise and understanding extended into actually flying the product. I also understand that in normal circumstances, following their training as pilots, they were posted to a one-time tour with a squadron to consolidate before being posted to full-time engineer officer duties. (The RNZAF had a similar scheme, but it was more limited and was discontinued long before Viet Nam.)
During the Viet Nam era, however, a few of the RAAF engineers found themselves doing a combat tour with No 9 Sqn – which I gathered was not something they had originally bargained upon, at least in the case of some.
This brings to mind an interesting aspect of planning for war. We habitually under-estimate the demand upon manpower in sustaining major operational deployments. This may be in part because politicians are likely to disbelieve (or don't want to hear) the true scale required, and in part because generals do not always want to tell them simply because they will disbelieve.
There is a good example of trouble with the numbers in New Zealand's military history. In the lead-up to World War 1, this country undertook some serious planning. To cut a long story short, it was calculated that to maintain a New Zealand Expeditionary Force overseas for any length of time would demand an overall replacement rate of close to 100 percent per annum. Many politicians disbelieved the figures, except for one – (former Colonel) James Allen, Minister of Defence. In the event, however unpalatable they might have seemed to others, during WW1 Allen's figures were shown to be realistic.
Why do I relate this? I've always thought that the RAAF hit a similar wall during the Viet Nam War. The demands upon the pilot training output for the three squadrons in theatre – Canberra, Caribou and UH-1 – were heavy, especially in that the one-year tour length means the starting point was 100% turnover pa by definition, and the actuality could only be higher than that. Thus the RNZAF contribution to 9 Sqn was not just an ANZAC gesture in mateship; it was a necessary gesture. And so it also came to pass that some RAAF engineer officers ended up where a few of them had not really expected to be - flying operationally in a war and getting shot at.
(And, in answer to another query, yes – that will be Chris Peters. His tour was at the same time as mine, give or take. Also yes, that is Gordon Wood, whose tour overlapped with mine.)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 8, 2007 21:03:36 GMT 12
Thanks Robin. I shall have to have a word with Bill and see what his story really is. I don't think he was RAAF, I'm certain he was RNZAF. He's definately a Kiwi.
I believe he was in for some time before the Viet Nam War began. Perhaps I misconstrued that he was actually flying the helicopters, though I'm certain that's what he meant. But perhaps he was operating with them, maybe as crew or as groundcrew. I will see what I can get out of him.
That's amazing seeing the figure of 100% turnover rate per annum for WWI, very sobering.
Robin, are you aware of whether any RNZAF guys who flew in Viet Nam have written their memoirs about their service? I truly think with your own excellent writing style and historical knowledge, you should write a book.
I'd like to learn more about No. 41 Squadron's service in Viet Nam too. That squadron as a whole seldom gets much mention, even in WWII. No. 40 Squadron seems to steal a lot of the glory doing the same job.
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RobinK
Warrant Officer
Posts: 36
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Post by RobinK on Jun 8, 2007 23:59:54 GMT 12
Yes; 41 Sqn's story does need to be recorded. Its task, however, was very different from 40 Squadron's. The latter was really in the strategic airlift business. And from personal contacts with the crews on the tarmac (or rather, the PSP) at Vung Tau when they visited, they really had little knowledge of, or interest in, the detailed battle environment around them. Some, but not much. 41 Sqn on the other hand visted regularly from Singapore - I think about once every two weeks - doing the rounds over several days including the medical teams up country. After the operational pullout in 1971, they serviced the remaining two training teams until they, too, were withdrawn in December 1972. But both squadrons were back again at the time of the collapse in 1975 - and 41 Sqn in particular has a tale to tell about that. But not here. One of the outcomes of the ongoing Agent Orange process is that the Ministry of Culture and Heritage is about to announce a special project to record New Zealand's part in the Viet Nam War. It will be based upon oral history but in this day and age when everything is digital it will include images and text as well - pictures, diaries, letters, the lot. Anything that people are prepared to make public. This will begin later in the year, and as I understand it will include a Web site to upload stuff. It would be a good opportunity to capture 40 and 41 Sqn stories. I should also mention that Ian McGibbon will be publishing a book on the subject later this year, covering the operational side. This will be the official history - he's a senior historian in MCH. The history of the political and diplomatic side has alrerady been published. It's called "New Zealand and the Viet Nam War - Politics and Diplomacy", by Roberto Rabel of Otago University. Auckland University Press, 2005, ISBN 1-86940-340-1. It, too, is an official history - and it contains some surprises. I did a review of it, available here: www.rsa.org.nz/review/bs2005december/bookshelf_2.htmMention of all this including the withdrawal reminds me of something. It's to do with the difference between legend and history - or, as Napoleon once put it, "history is only the legend agreed upon". In this case the legend, whether agreed upon or not, is that the incoming Labour Government (Kirk) disengaged New Zealand troops from the battle and brought them out as soon as it took office at the end of 1972. This at best is only partly true. There was a lot of fanfare at the time about bringing the troops home for Christmas, but the unadorned historical fact is that by the time the Kirk government took the Treasury benches in December 1972, the only troops we had left in Viet Nam were two small, non-combat training teams. One of the two rifle companies ("Whisky") was withdrawn in November 1970, more than two years before the change of government in 1972. Then the SAS contingent was brought out in February 1971. 161 Battery followed in May 1971. The rest of 1 ATF (Australian Task Force) including Victor Company and all remaining NZ combat elements including the last helicopter pilot, came home in December 1971. And so Kiwi Keith Holyoake had completed the withdrawal of combat troops, in full, a year before his government yielded at the polls to Norman Kirk. That is the history. The legend is something else; and, I fear, most Kiwis adhere to the legend rather than the history, over-generously giving Norm Kirk credit for something already done.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 9, 2007 0:28:20 GMT 12
Thanks Robin. That's good news about the oral history project. It will be a very worthwhile project. Also interesting to hear about the Ian McGibbon book, I know he's a very well respected author and historian so it should be good. That's interesting about Kirk and Holyoake's withdrawal of troops. Having been born in Decemebr 1970 I know little of those times, and I had come to believe the legend, and not heard that truth before. A politican claiming something he hadn't done? Surely not.
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Post by FlyNavy on Sept 1, 2007 2:23:51 GMT 12
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emu3
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 2
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Post by emu3 on Nov 21, 2021 18:42:08 GMT 12
It's a long time since there was any action on this thread!
I was an RAN pilot in Vietnam with the US Army 135th Assault Helicopter Company (EMUs).
As well as the RNZAF assisting the RAAF with aircrew for 9SQN, the Fleet Air Arm at Nowra was first off the mark to fill up the numbers for the RAAF's aircrew needs for Vietnam. While eight Navy pilots served on 9SQN VN, those eight, and I believe at least one Kiwi (but for the life of me I cannot recall his name), came and flew with us to get some combat time in. Once the RAAF got its pipeline going, the 9SQN aircrew numbers rose to the point that flying hours dropped markedly (and also in accordance with the 1ATF operational needs for choppers) - lots of pilots not much flying. All the while we in the 135th were flying about 120 - 140 hours per month (my year's tally was 1250 hours). This is true for all four contingents of the RAN Helicopter Flight Vietnam.
Just on the Albatross in 9Sqn's crest - that goes back to WW II and HMAS SYDNEY (II). The RAAF flew the Albatross amphibian onboard that ship and as we all know, all hands were lost when SYDNEY was sunk by the German Raider HSK KORMORAN 19 NOV 1941.
Our Australian War Memorial at its daily Last Post ceremony on Friday commemorating that ship and the only (then unknown) body found washed ashore on Christmas Island back then was named as Able Seaman Thomas Welsby Clark (from Brisbane, QLD) after a huge DNA search finally proved his identity; now no longer an unknown sailor. Lest we forget.
Cheers, EMU 3
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emu3
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 2
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Post by emu3 on Nov 21, 2021 18:44:07 GMT 12
But tracer beats aiming through a gun sight, you can actually see what's going on.
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Post by nuuumannn on Nov 22, 2021 12:38:40 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 22, 2021 14:12:29 GMT 12
Many here will be interested to know that I have been chatting with emu3 for a month or so, and we have recorded a WONZ Show already about his father who was a fighter pilot in the RNZAF in WWII, and the RNZAF fighter squadrons in the Pacific. We are planning more recording sessions too about the Vietnam War and his own service with the Royal Australian Navy. This is going to be fascinating, so watch this space for upcoming WONZ Shows.
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