rodm
Flying Officer
Posts: 65
|
Post by rodm on Sept 21, 2013 8:54:07 GMT 12
without wanting to 'hijack' this wonderful thread, here a couple of images of documents from the 'other side': This is the Flugbuch (flying logbook) of Walter Rauch, who was the flight mechanic on board the Ju88 night fighter when Rix's Fortress HB802 was shot down on 14-15 March 1945. The second to last entry on the page is the flight concerned: Most of the individual Abschussmeldungen (combat reports) of the German Luftwaffe were destroyed/lost in the closing weeks of the war. In the case of Nachtjagdgeschwader 6, to which Becker, Johanssen, and Rauch belonged, a contemporary hand-written index/log of that units' combat reports does survive (in private hands), and the page relating to the Becker/Johanssen claims is reproduced below. The information was taken from the first page of the original combat reports, and the columns are (from left to right) - Nachtjagdgeschwader claim no / name of individual claimant / flying unit of claimant / aircraft type claimed ('4-mot' means four-motored aircraft) / date of claim / time of claim / location of crash site / individual claimant victory number. The last entry reproduced relates to the claim against Rix's Fortress: Cheers Rod
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Sept 22, 2013 19:15:38 GMT 12
Fascinating Rod. Thanks. Russell Douglas logbook ends at 14 March 1945 and notes POW. You might enjoy his cartoon of the crew Squadron mate Lyndsay Budge was flying the next two nights to MISBURG (15/3/45) then Nierenberg (16/3/45) he describes as "a shakey do, 24 kites lost" He finished his tour on 16/4/45 with a trip to Pilsen. Here is Lyndsay with the F/E. With Halifaxes, there is the well known IWM shot of 192 Squadron MZ817 at Foulsham 9/12/44 and of 1341 flight out of Digri India For the equipment minded
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 22, 2013 19:44:52 GMT 12
Did people in the occupied countries collect the millions of strips of Window tin foil from around the countryside and recycle it in some way?
|
|
mozart
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 4
|
Post by mozart on Sept 22, 2013 20:02:35 GMT 12
I'm sure that many found some ingenious uses for it Dave, though I don't know of any specific cases. One instance of "recycling" that I am aware of though is one of the tail fins of Heinz Schnaufer's (the LW's top-scoring Nachtjager) favourite Bf110G4, coded G9+EF. There's one on exhibit in the AWM in Canberra, the other in the IWM London (these were both from a later aircraft that he flew in which he had no aerial victories) but the real one that came from G9+EF was discovered post-war was being used as the roof of a chicken coop! It's now in the hands of a private collector. Regards Max
|
|
|
Post by nuuumannn on Sept 22, 2013 20:44:09 GMT 12
It's a shame that only the fin survives at IWM regardless, the entire aircraft was taken to the UK postwar; Bf 110G-4 G9+BA, and it was put on public display in Hyde Park at one time. It was the last Nachtjagd aeroplane that Schnaufer flew.
Nice pictures of the ELINT Halifaxes; I'd not seen the Digri one before, having seen a couple of pics of Halis in India in the past.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 22, 2013 21:21:43 GMT 12
I never knew Halifaxes were operated in the India/Burma theatre before. What were they doing? I'm not aware of night bombing raids into Burma, was that occurring?
|
|
|
Post by nuuumannn on Sept 23, 2013 14:04:14 GMT 12
The Halifaxes referred to in this discussion were operating in the electronic intelligence ELINT role and flew with 1341 Flight out of Digri. Two Special Operators were carried aboard facing port with recording devices and and a CRT display with a camera mounting to photograph the CRT display recording. The ELINT Halis usually could be distinguished from their bomber bretheren by an array of small antennae under their bellies, but were converted bombers; Mk.IIs, 'Vs and IIIs. There aren't many photographs out there of these aircraft. There were a number of Halifax units that operated in the Middle East and Far East, including 148, 178, 462 and 614 Sqns and 1341 and 1577 Flights.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 23, 2013 15:53:06 GMT 12
What does ELINT and CRT mean? Was this night time or daytime work?
|
|
|
Post by nuuumannn on Sept 23, 2013 16:01:34 GMT 12
ELINT stands for ELectronic INTelligence and is concerned with intercepting radio and radar transmissions and deciphering them. This is also referred to as SIGINT, which is short for SIGnals INTelligence. CRT is Combined Rural Traders and you can get discounts on chook feed and... sorry, Dave, a CRT is a Cathode Ray Tube display. The aircraft of 100 Group largely flew at night and their ELINT activities were largely aimed at the German night fighter defences; ground radar and airborne radar in the aircraft themselves. Mandrel, which has been mentioned in earlier posts was designed specifically for jamming German Freya radars and Mandrel equipped Halifaxes were also used for dropping Window. 100 Group used both Stirlings and Halifaxes, but not normally Lancasters to carry Mandrel as the Halifax was roomier inside than the Lancaster, to fit the operators and the array of black boxes. Each Mandrel Halifax usually had a single operator to manage eight Mandrel sets; he also dropped the Window out the chute.
Moonshine, which has also been mentioned was a different form of radar countermeasure as it was not an active jammer and it was primarily used during the day; it would pick up signals from the Freya radars and transmit them exactly in phase. When mounted in the Defiants, Moonshine could operate on one eightth of the frequency of Freya, therefore eight tightly flown Defiants in formation could produce a large blip on a German radar screen that would simulate a vast number of aircraft. Because Moonshine required the Defiants to fly in close formation it was mainly used in daylight in support of USAAF 8th AF raids, providing a deterrent to the inbound raids for German fighters. It wasn't until 6 August 1942 that Moonshine was first used against the Germans by Defiants, this was after testing at RAF Drem using a British GCI unit tuned to Freya frequencies. Because Mandrel was an active jammer, it did not require aircraft to fly in tight formation, so could be used at night in smaller numbers. The first Mandrel Defiant flight was on 6 December 1942. Daffys couldn't carry both Mandrel and Moonshine and eventually owing to the Defiant's short range, Beaufighters took over Mandrel duties as well as the 100 Grp aircraft.
There was also a piece of equipment called Serrate, which Defiants tested, but was used operationally on beaufighters and Mosquitoes, to home in on German night fighter radars.
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Sept 23, 2013 16:09:05 GMT 12
All good stuff. The equipment above shows window production , then the jostle jammer , carona German language RT broadcasting,and finally the radar set on NF Mosquitos . Pictures of German radar sets to follow.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 23, 2013 16:13:29 GMT 12
Thanks for the explanations. We're not all experts in every field, so a lot of this stuff is new to me and probably a lot of other readers.
How did Window come packaged, when loaded onto the bomber? Was it all just in a big paper bag or a carton? I believe that a crew member usually hand fed it through the flare chute, right?
|
|
|
Post by nuuumannn on Sept 23, 2013 16:41:00 GMT 12
No one is. This thread is particularly fascinating; some real good info being provided about a subject that isn't covered in detail often. Window came in pre-packed bundles and were hand thrown out the aircraft. Contrary to what is believed, the British weren't the only ones to come up with the idea; the Germans also had what they called Duppel, which was exactly the same thing. Just one thing, Window wasn't strictly strips of aluminium, but aluminised paper, paper coated with ali, this was to keep weight down but also because paper would remain airborne for longer, so it was calculated.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 23, 2013 20:40:54 GMT 12
I'm learning a lot from this thread, it's very interesting.
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Sept 24, 2013 16:26:19 GMT 12
There is an extensive list of code names for radar and jamming listed on Wikipedia under WWII Electronic Warfare equipment. These Bundes archive photos are of German radar units 100 Group aimed to jam Night Fighter HQ, Guntzel 1944 Mannheim Wasserman Freya Wurzberg and Freya Also targeting Nachtjager transmissions were the eight man crews on 101 Squadron Lancasters fitted with Airborne Cigar. Not 100 Group but 1 Group. IWM's well known photo of NG128 dropping window then a 4000lb cookie and incedaries, over Duisberg 14/10/44 Philip Wests painting clearly shows the ABC masts on 101 Squadron aircraft. But by March April 1945 many 101 Lancasters had no ABC equipment or were using new whip type aerials
|
|
mozart
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 4
|
Post by mozart on Sept 25, 2013 6:56:52 GMT 12
The most informative, interesting and intriguing website that I've found about this whole matter, and in particular aspects of the Luftwaffe is this one: www.gyges.dk/Max
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Sept 25, 2013 12:37:36 GMT 12
Its a good data site Max thanks , although our system doesn't handle all of the downloads there is still plenty to see.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 25, 2013 13:01:41 GMT 12
So the No. 101 Squadron SR-V colour scheme on MOTAT's Lancaster is depicting a Special Op machine? I never realised that before. I always assumed it was a regular bomber force aircraft.
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Sept 25, 2013 15:45:20 GMT 12
Dave, the white on the tail fin of RE 157 is the undercoat of a quick washover with white for the Tiger Force aircraft.We have others showing progress and the finished job. MOTATS Lancaster is in generic RAF night scheme camoflage of 1943/44 and the coding has come under question as to the true fate of the aircraft depicted ie not lost on operations. Phil Furner has more.
|
|
flyfair
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 3
|
Post by flyfair on Oct 20, 2016 2:57:41 GMT 12
Hello, Not sure if this thread is still alive. In FlyPast magazine, January 2015, there was an article about 100 Group operations with the Fortress Mk.III. Reference was made to the March 14/15, 1945 Lützkendorf raid, and the loss of two 214 Squadron Fortresses, one of which returned to England with just it's pilot aboard. In this FlyPast article the aircraft concerned is named as HB779. On a post in this thread it was named as HB799. There are obviously fingers at work somewhere here, can anyone please confirm which one of those two Forts it actually was? Both of them were Fortress Mk.III and both served with 214 Squadron, which one was the single-piloted aircraft on the Lützkendorf raid? Thank you if you can answer this one.
|
|
rodm
Flying Officer
Posts: 65
|
Post by rodm on Oct 20, 2016 15:35:07 GMT 12
Hello, Not sure if this thread is still alive. In FlyPast magazine, January 2015, there was an article about 100 Group operations with the Fortress Mk.III. Reference was made to the March 14/15, 1945 Lützkendorf raid, and the loss of two 214 Squadron Fortresses, one of which returned to England with just it's pilot aboard. In this FlyPast article the aircraft concerned is named as HB779. On a post in this thread it was named as HB799. There are obviously fingers at work somewhere here, can anyone please confirm which one of those two Forts it actually was? Both of them were Fortress Mk.III and both served with 214 Squadron, which one was the single-piloted aircraft on the Lützkendorf raid? Thank you if you can answer this one. HB799 - damaged on the night of 14-15 March 1945, piloted by F/L Wynne. Landed at Bassingbourne airfield upon return to the UK. HB779 - lost on the night of 15-16 March 1945, piloted by F/O Vinall. Crashed south of Kruft, near Konlenz in Germany, following a night fighter attack. Sources that confirm aircraft serial numbers: 214 Squadron Operations Record Book, March 1945 (file: AIR 27/1324 at The National Archives, London), Bomber Command Summary of Aircraft Lost or Damaged on Operations Nr. 55, 1-16 March 1945 (file: AIR 14/3460 at The National Archives, London), Bomber Command Loss Card for HB779 (held by the RAF Museum at Hendon, London) Cheers Rod
|
|