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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 28, 2015 15:27:49 GMT 12
It won't happen until NZ faces wartime conditions but I would like to see a return to National Service/CMT in NZ. I honesty think that unemployed youth's would be better off gaining a trade in the military than receiving the dole and trying to navigate the private sector job market. Those who aren't suited to service in the NZDF could serve in a Kiwi version of the Peace corps.
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Post by frankly on Mar 29, 2015 9:11:23 GMT 12
Why on earth would you want to saddle a professional military with babysitting duties?
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Post by phil on Mar 29, 2015 10:20:01 GMT 12
And who would do the jobs of the military people assigned to train all these unemployed?
Which outputs would you suggest we axe to provide personnel and funding training to all the unemployed?
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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 29, 2015 17:44:34 GMT 12
And who would do the jobs of the military people assigned to train all these unemployed? Which outputs would you suggest we axe to provide personnel and funding training to all the unemployed? Okay two ways would exist if National Service or just was to reintroduced. The first way would be to push unemployed youths towards military service. This isn't practical for a number of reasons. My preferred option wouldn't be National Service/CMT in its original form. I would aim for military/civilian apprenticeships in Charter schools. Greater ties with universities and other training providers would be useful. Even with a voluntary scheme I think there would be clear benefits.
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Post by baronbeeza on Mar 29, 2015 18:02:24 GMT 12
Many of the guys that did time with the mob must be wondering where these ideas are coming from. The RNZAF, in my day at least, would not be well equipped to deal with such types. I would think the situation would be much worse now. Why would you want to wish anything like this on the military ?
I can't see any political party going near it and I still have strong memories of the 1972 election. We may be in a completely different environment now but if I am reading you correctly what you have in mind would have to be an unacceptable burden surely. Charter schools and the Prison Service may be in line with those suggestions but again I thought both of those institutions were already doing something similar. Have you ever served in the Defence Force in any capacity ? Somehow I can't see much of an Air Force perspective there. It would not go down well with the troops I am sure.
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Post by Peter Lewis on Mar 29, 2015 18:26:21 GMT 12
The voting age was lowered from 21 to 18.
That really killed CMT.
Also, in the era of 'equality', what do you do with all of the . . . um . . . ladies?
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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 29, 2015 19:00:18 GMT 12
Why on earth would you want to saddle a professional military with babysitting duties? A perfectly valid question. I think if the scheme was voluntary you would avoid the lazy bums. Up until the 90's the Australian Army ran an apprenticeship scheme in high schools.Everybody benefited the Army got skilled trades people. After they left the army young people had a trade that could hold them in good stead. Sure there would be more front up costs but in the long term it would pay off. The other argument I would make is having a bare bones NZDF is in polite terms darn right dangerous. At some point in the not too distance future this danger is going to be before us.
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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 29, 2015 19:33:16 GMT 12
Many of the guys that did time with the mob must be wondering where these ideas are coming from. The RNZAF, in my day at least, would not be well equipped to deal with such types. I would think the situation would be much worse now. Why would you want to wish anything like this on the military ? I can't see any political party going near it and I still have strong memories of the 1972 election. We may be in a completely different environment now but if I am reading you correctly what you have in mind would have to be an unacceptable burden surely. Charter schools and the Prison Service may be in line with those suggestions but again I thought both of those institutions were already doing something similar. Have you ever served in the Defence Force in any capacity ? Somehow I can't see much of an Air Force perspective there. It would not go down well with the troops I am sure. I am just putting ideas out there for discussion. Your right about no political party would go near it. I can see your point concerning the Air Force. What happens when the RNZAF needs to expand beyond its current size? No I haven't served in the Defence Force. I do care about the armed services. If you want an example of a like minded person (the issue of CMT aside) check out www.savetheroyalnavy.org/ IMO a higher degree of public awareness about the role of the RNZAF and the other services is needed. Note I am not directly connected to the Save the Royal Navy Campaign but I did interview its founder for my podcast.
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Post by phil on Mar 29, 2015 20:09:29 GMT 12
I think if the scheme was voluntary you would avoid the lazy bums. Voluntary? Well they could simply volunteer to join the regular force like they can right now. No need for any kind of new scheme. The aussies have a 'Gap year' scheme where students can apply for a one year enlistement. They are paid $45,000+ for the year. www.defencejobs.gov.au/education/GapYear/The RAAF also have 'A year or two in the air force', with 12 or 24 month contracts for specific roles: www.defencejobs.gov.au/airforce/one-and-two-year-roles/
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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 30, 2015 20:53:53 GMT 12
Phil do you think it would be worthwhile for the RNZAF to have the gap year scheme?
Do you think the RNZAF will be able to sustain itself recruitment wise with its current public profile?
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Post by ZacYates on Mar 31, 2015 13:00:33 GMT 12
I think I would've done well if CMT or secondary school cadets had been a factor when I was at high school. I know of just one ATC member out of the 600+ students who went through my school during my time there, maybe one naval cadet also. I lacked the personal discipline to even ask about ATC, let alone take part, so a compulsory scheme would've done me wonders. I have ok discipline and decent respect for "superiors" - at least I feel I do - whereas my physical fitness is something I've actively ignored. Given my time again, CMT would be for me.
I certainly don't know enough about CMT and/or the Gap Year programmes to make any educated comment or suggestion as to whether it should be a part of the modern landscape.
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Post by baronbeeza on Mar 31, 2015 14:34:41 GMT 12
A lack of knowledge or experience should not hold you back from posting. There must be guys about that seem to think the RNZAF types do parades and running and whatever else they may have seen in the movies.
I did time and for 15 months straight I did not do any parades whatsoever, never ran or did any other organised PT. We were so busy doing other more important things but it was definitely a case of work hard, - play hard.
Even during a more conventional working week a parade was something that may take up to 10 or 15 minutes one morning. There would normally be minimum marching involved. Again you could go months without a parade. Sport would be less frequent and apart from a 6 monthly, or annual, 2 mile run many guys would not have done too much there either.
I know of guys that never made a bedpack or did a stand-by-bed inspection during their time as well.
So if you take parades, running and barrack inspections out of the routine what else could a CMT trainee do ? The rest of us would be too busy working to look after them. There would be many postings in the modern Air Force that are like that I imagine. The running and jumping activities are when you are on a course of some description, entrant or promotion course more likely.
If you want parades and running then join the ATC.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 31, 2015 15:35:46 GMT 12
Do you all realise that the NZDF already runs, and has done for some years, a scheme for introducing young unemployed people (ages 18-25) to military service through the Limited Service Volunteer scheme? It's a six-week course so basically half a Basic Training course, just like the old CMT days. I have actually met people who've done it not too long ago, and they said it made a big difference in their lives and attitudes. So while the notion proposed of voluntary "compulsory military training" sounds daft, it is actually already happening and apparently working.
The NZDF also runs other youth development programmes separate to this, too.
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Post by thelensofhistory on Mar 31, 2015 18:52:03 GMT 12
Dave I am aware of the Limited Service Volunteer scheme. I have wondered why they just didn't go the whole hog. At the other end of the spectrum why not have the NZDF target the likes of Nursing graduates who are looking for employment? The in which NZ can get by with a bare banes military is running out .
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Post by ZacYates on Apr 1, 2015 7:56:51 GMT 12
I too am aware of LSV - I run the Youth Court here and I've had a couple of them go through it.
thelensofhistory: this may be off-topic, but why are you so convinced NZ stands on the precipice of some conflict requiring the NZDF invest in the latest and greatest equipment?
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Post by obiwan27 on Apr 1, 2015 11:25:56 GMT 12
I too am aware of LSV - I run the Youth Court here and I've had a couple of them go through it. thelensofhistory: this may be off-topic, but why are you so convinced NZ stands on the precipice of some conflict requiring the NZDF invest in the latest and greatest equipment? Hi Zac, here is one example of what I think thelenseofhistory is referring to: www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/67573292/us-admiral-sounds-the-alarm-of-chinas-intentions-in-south-china-seaWill we go to war? Will wee be equipped to do so? I suggest the answer is no to both. Our politicians (of all colours) are too focussed on the next election and their own interests to be focussed properly on the security interests of the nation. That is due to the electoral system and short term between elections, amongst other things, imho.
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Post by baronbeeza on Apr 1, 2015 12:01:45 GMT 12
Somehow I think Defence thinking may be a little different than that, a). Senior Officers don't go telling the enemy what you are up to or thinking. Well not normally. b). Senior Officers didn't get to be in their positions by allowing media reporters to be within earshot of comments. c). Who believes what a newspaper has in their articles today anyway ? One of our senior reporters in NZ has been exposed several times over now for 'making stuff up'. There is threat analysis going on constantly, we have a structure for senior command to be briefed and plan accordingly. Any reporter or armchair general that thinks he/she knows better would have to be in lala land. Officers' briefings are held regularly on every Base and Intelligence matters are discussed. Of course it is all behind closed doors and classified etc. It would be nothing like what we are reading here, this is for public consumption and would be part of some political agenda. Some of the briefings I attended would be a very watered down and sanitized version but was more of an appraisal of the situation or environment. The RAF one at the beginning of the Falklands campaign comes to mind there. Would it be any surprise that it was nothing at all like the newspaper reporting of the time ? Junior Officers were kept up to speed by a regular circulation of magazines and similar literature. One in particular seemed to be pretty close to the mark and was the benchmark back in the day. aviationweek.com/
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Post by thelensofhistory on Apr 1, 2015 19:14:36 GMT 12
Zacyates the short answer is a combination of factors. China territorial ambitions are going unchecked and they under taking a massive naval build up. Baronbeeza copy -paste your post into this topic and I will happily reply to your and anyone else's posts. I don't wish to go too far off topic.
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Post by baronbeeza on Apr 1, 2015 21:06:00 GMT 12
Yeah, ...... nah
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Apr 1, 2015 21:46:59 GMT 12
China territorial ambitions are going unchecked and they under taking a massive naval build up. That sounds a bit like the British during the 18th and 19th centuries. Anyway, how big is the Chinese navy? One tenth the size of the American navy (the other big player in the Pacific)? A fifth? A quarter? Half?
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