The Canberra in RNZAF service

[Dave Homewood]

These are such excellent photos. Many thanks again for sharing them.

That first shot in this last batch intrigues me, the two central Vampires look odd. I know we dicussed these the other week peter when you showed me these shots and you said they had shadows on them but I have to wonder, what from? The dark patch on the noses of both goes right up over the top of the noses, but the sun seems clearly to be above the whole fomation. To get shadow like that the sun would have to be near the hoizon and they'd have to be heading towards it, but form the other siz lanes it's not, the sun's well above them.

And the leading Vampire has darkness on its port boom and tail but not its starboard, while the other Vampires don't have the shadown/dark colour at all. If that's a shadow, what is casting it?

Is the photo doctored? Or did they have dark underside markings on some Vampires?

[phil82]

That last Canberra photo, appeared om the Airmens"Mess Xmas menu 1966! I still have a copy!

[suthg]

Dave - considering that first photo, of the Vampires - perhaps there were more aircraft in the flight - out to the right, off shot - in line with the sun, and their profiles cast those markings as shadows?

[johnnyfalcon]

I don't believe that is shadow you can see on those two Vampires. I'm sure my Dad showed me some ground pics of Vampires painted that way. Unsure of colour though. I'm still trying to find some of his old airforce pics

[baz62]

I'd say the noses are definitely painted as they both seem to have the same demarcation lines but the tail looks to be a shadow from an (out of shot)aircraft as the other "nose job" has a clean tail.
But will wait to see what Johnny digs up. (Hurry up we are waiting! ;D)

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks for that feedback, I am not the only one who thinks it then. There was the one with the red pinstripe that widened out onto the nose, as seen in Graeme Cossgrove's collection, I wonder if they had some other variations?

[Dave Homewood]

Could they also have perhaps blackened some underneath for night ops?

[baronbeeza]

I would be betting a few jugs that the dark areas on those Vampires are shadows being cast down from the Canberras above. The lead Vampire is getting it's shade from the tailplane of 05 and I imagine the other Vampire is in the wing or fuse shadow of 04.

The contrast is just so marked and the lines do indeed match up.

The sun was brighter back in those days and if you look at the last pic of the series, the Vampire refuelling you can clearly see the silver darkens in the shade.
You can also see the bright nose area of the stbd underwing tanks where they protrude forward of the wing shadow.

Make mine a DB thanks Baz..

[Dave Homewood]

I cannot see how it can be shadow cast by the Canberras in the shot, considering they are at relatively the same height if not slightly lower tha the Vampirs, and the sun is clearly high in the sky given the shadow casts on the outer Vampires and the Canberras.

"The sun was brighter back in those days"

You do talk some bollocks sometimes...

"Make mine a DB thanks"

DB? That explains the talking bollocks... ;D

[baz62]

Ok I'm convinced its NOT paint but shadows. If you look at the one in trail there is a bright patch on the nose. This is because the wing of the aircraft casting the shadow is tapered so sun is touching the nose, getting into shadow and then reappearing again at the trailing edge of the wing.........just the same profile as a Vampire wing too.
I've got a large monitor (22") and with the photo enlarged its obvious its not paint. Also ALL four show up having the painted rear tailbooms(yellow, dayglo?) as you can see the line where it stops even IN the shadow.
I'm not shy I'll drink anything if its free...... ;D

[saratoga]

I'd back baronbeeza on the shadow theory.
Light/shadows play funny tricks ,especially on curved surfaces and its not too clear the relative spacings of the 2 different types/sizes of aircraft.
Also if you look at one of the Vampires , it would appear,going by the painted theory that only one boom is painted a dark colour ,yet all the others are either dayglo or yellow, or red! ;D

[baz62]

What he said.

[baronbeeza]

Mar 27, 2013 14:26:42 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

"The sun was brighter back in those days"

You do talk some bollocks sometimes...

"Make mine a DB thanks"

DB? That explains the talking bollocks... ;D

Bollocks ?

I am not so sure. Baz seems to be easily convinced they are shadows.

As for the sun..... well of course the atmosphere has changed in the past 50 years.
The sun seems nowhere near as strong now, we don't get burnt feet on the sand or roads like we used to. How about popping tar bubbles on the road also ?

We also see the pollution in the number of visible stars, admittedly much of that can be attributed to light pollution.

I was visiting an atmospheric test tower on Kirimati Island, the guys from some University in the States were saying they had gone to the middle of the Pacific to try and get the cleanest air possible. Is it the Carbon Dioxide levels that affect the heat or visible spectrum rays penetrating the various layers of the atmosphere ?

You just have to look at the sky in Asia or Europe to see the difference from our skies.
There would not be too many days a year in the UK for example where you would get such clear defined shadows as we see in that series of pics. I realise the skies in the UK were none too brilliant 40 years ago.

As for the DB, - perhaps I would not be left drinking alone.
Baz has changed bar leaners..... thanks mate.

[Dave Homewood]

I don't buy it at all, sorry, you are saying the sun used to be brighter than it is now? We have far more UV light now than ever before due to the ozone layer depletions, something that didn't have an effect in the 1950's-60's. New Zealand now has six times the UV light than they get at Eyres Rock in Australia.

Industry used to be largely coal powered, now it's much more clean burning, there have been big campaigns to reduce smoke, smog, carbondioxide and all the other nasties of the past. Not that there was much and is much industrial pollution around Manuwatu where this photo was likely taken.

By the way, this summer has been bloody hot - the hottest we have had in my lifetime - I have gotten pretty bloody hot feet on concrete, on our new wooden deck, and on tarmac just as with every previous summer, and in what used to be out lawn which has been pretty hot to walk on in the afternoons - even now well into autumn - we had at least 28C today, we were getting 35C and 36C regularly through the summer. I have also seen a lot of melted tar on the roads this summer - I walk a lot and notice such things. I guess you're just in the cold smoggy south? or you need cataracts removed maybe if you think it's getting dimmer?

[beagle]

cold smoggy south.........................gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

we know where you live Mr Homewood

[saratoga]

everybody knows the sun is dying, we just need National to start a sun tax , that'll save us all......

[suthg]

Ok after a closer look, the sun was above and ahead of the flight, at 10'oclock from the view of the camera. The first vampire tailplane has cast a part shadow on the second in behind (narrow on that acute angle), and the forward canberra tailplane - larger - has cast a complete shadow on the first vampire's nose. jm2c...

[Dave Homewood]

Mar 27, 2013 21:19:40 GMT 12 beagle said:

cold smoggy south.........................gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

we know where you live Mr Homewood

Yes, in sunnier climes than you

[hawkeye]

Gents, its shadow. don't argue with the Hawkeye. I have 50/50 vision, 50% of the time I'm right, 50% of the time you're wrong.
Shadow could have been passed on by another group of four at the nine to 11 o'clock high, sun angles are deceiving. We have no idea of the time/met/lat/long/alt/Aerosols to comment on sun for that image. Also check the extreme point on the nose on both Vamps and tail boom shadow on no.1.

I'm just wondering how well these babies would do these days stooging up high with a nice pod, JDAMs, perhaps a 20mm gatling in the bomb - bay and other precision targeting goodies?
Throw in air to air refueling, Hmmmm. Better get a bigger 3D printer

[phil82]

04 does a wheel-up at Ohakea...pilot was Dave Crooks