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Post by baz62 on Feb 24, 2014 16:14:20 GMT 12
You nicked that photo from a previous post I made Baz. It comes from the collection of a No. 30 Squadron member Alan Andrews, it is not an official shot as he had his own camera, and I got it via his daughter Lynn Adams. I didn't "nick" it as you put it, i have been "borrowing" photos so I can zoom in and try and read and see further details. I usually delete them but this one didn't have a description (I save them with the credit of who it belongs to but this one didn't have that hence my wondering whose it was.) If you want it deleted let me know. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 24, 2014 16:20:05 GMT 12
I don't mind in the slightest, they are posted to be shared. I was not trying to insinuate anything sinister Baz. No need to delete it.
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Post by McFly on Feb 24, 2014 16:21:14 GMT 12
Those tatty hand-me-down engine cowls have been repaired and configured back to regular TBF-1c standard with gun channel deleted. The wings are early style and must predate the fuselage because they have no provision for guns. I've mentioned before how the early TBF-1 Avengers the RNZAF (the first 6 and at least NZ2503, NZ2504 and NZ2505))had the nose gun AND the wing guns. Photos I have seen of NZ2504 and her sisters seem to show that was their original configuration. Yet today NZ2527 has wings with no guns. And if you look at this photo (which I see has a photo credit to one Anthony Galbraith) of NZ2527 you can see the bulge on the wing (near edge of the yellow stripe)indicating she has the wing gun wings!  So if 3 of the 6 TBF-1 had all three (nose and two wing guns)and the remaining TBF-1C (NZ2507-NZ2548) had only two (wing guns) which Avenger had the non-wing gun wings? Perhaps NZ2501 NZ2502? I've never seen photos of these RNZAF Avengers, has anyone got any photos? NZ2501 Negative Number: PR1898 Caption: Chief of Air Staff, Air Vice Marshal L. M. Isitt and entourage, inspecting a Grumman TBF Avenger. Royal New Zealand Air Force Station, Gisborne [?] Further Information: Isitt is standing centre on starboard wing. Aircraft is presumed to be NZ2501. Year of Image: 1943 Image Date Information: Circa 1943.  NZ2502 Negative Number: MUS990992 Caption: Group of RNZAF Personnel loading the hopper with Superphosphate for the aerial topdressing trials. Royal New Zealand Air Force Station Ohakea. Avenger NZ2502 behind, with 'Popeye' nose art. Further Information: Year of Image: 1949 Image Date Information: Circa 1949  NZ2527, NZ2503, NZ2504 Negative Number: OhG4424~54 Caption: Air to air of three Grumman Avengers in formation over the Manawatu area. Further Information: L-R: NZ2527, NZ2503, NZ2504. Year of Image: 1954 Image Date Information: Circa 1954  NZ2527 Negative Number: ALB990574055 Caption: Image from the Woolhouse personal album collection. Grumman Avenger NZ2527. Unknown location. Further Information: Note the later yellow/black colour scheme of a target tug aircraft. Year of Image: 1950 Image Date Information: Circa 1950's.  NZ2527 Negative Number: ALB990574132 Caption: Image from the Woolhouse personal album collection. Grumman TBF Avenger NZ2527. Unknown location. Further Information: Year of Image: 1950 Image Date Information: Circa 1950's.  NZ2527 Negative Number: MUS060446 Caption: 3/4 front view of Grumman Avenger NZ2527. Communications Flight at Royal New Zealand Air Force Station Nausori, Fiji. Further Information: Large aircraft code letter A painted on the port engine cowl. Year of Image: 1945  (All photos Air Force Museum) |
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Post by emron on Feb 24, 2014 20:34:08 GMT 12
Further about the mystery wings on 2527. They are very low serial numbers and when one was deskinned to repair there was no provision for armament found. So they are ealy TBF-1 wings and probably made in 1942. When we stripped the paint only one layer of RNZAF paint had been applied and this was the final 1950's bumble bee scheme that are shown in photos of it at Te Kuiti and Ardmore subsequent to disposal. The only other paint beneath was original factory with US Navy star!! This suggests that they were only attached to 2527 late in it's career and they didn't have any previous RNZAF history. Does anyone out there recall if through mishap or corrosion 2527 needed a refit? These wings may have been in stores (retrieved at the end of the war from an abandoned Marines stockpile in the islands) or maybe ordered in from surplus stocks in US. I would have thought it to be easier just to exchange from one of the attrition airframes but maybe they were also in poor condition at that stage. Looking forward to hearing the real explanation.
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Post by baz62 on Feb 25, 2014 11:47:22 GMT 12
That photo of NZ2502 is actually NZ2504 as she had the Popeye nose art and was involved in the topdressing trials (along with NZ2527 and NZ2503 I think. Not sure about NZ2502)
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Post by baz62 on Feb 25, 2014 11:54:18 GMT 12
I was not trying to insinuate anything sinister Baz. |
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Post by emron on Feb 25, 2014 20:12:35 GMT 12
Thanks for posting these intriguing new pics. ALB990574055 portrays the final scheme for 2527 and the wings have to be the present ones. The date info with that photo is pretty vague but must be post 1956. There's a formation photo of 42 Squadron 19/9/56 posted elsewhere which shows it in the previous scheme. Notice how the roundel and tailband are reversed between the 2 schemes and wide fin stripes added. Interesting to note that the cockpit aerial mast was deleted by then and a newfangled aerial installed behind the turret. I've always wondered where that mast went because they are also now scarce as turkey's teeth.They all very helpful in setting the timeframe for the wing change.
I'm sure that all of our TBF's came out of the factory with gun wings, it's only that 2501 -6 were from that transitional batch with fuselages that were built to the old TBF-1 design. Do we know if these early birds were ever equipped with operational wing guns ?
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Post by emron on Sept 24, 2021 20:05:17 GMT 12
Those tatty hand-me-down engine cowls have been repaired and configured back to regular TBF-1c standard with gun channel deleted. The wings are early style and must predate the fuselage because they have no provision for guns. I've mentioned before how the early TBF-1 Avengers the RNZAF (the first 6 and at least NZ2503, NZ2504 and NZ2505))had the nose gun AND the wing guns. Photos I have seen of NZ2504 and her sisters seem to show that was their original configuration. Yet today NZ2527 has wings with no guns. And if you look at this photo (which I see has a photo credit to one Anthony Galbraith) of NZ2527 you can see the bulge on the wing (near edge of the yellow stripe)indicating she has the wing gun wings! So if 3 of the 6 TBF-1 had all three (nose and two wing guns)and the remaining TBF-1C (NZ2507-NZ2548) had only two (wing guns) which Avenger had the non-wing gun wings? Perhaps NZ2501 NZ2502? I've never seen photos of these RNZAF Avengers, has anyone got any photos? Maybe we can regain some of the missing links above. |
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Post by McFly on Sept 24, 2021 20:30:05 GMT 12
I've mentioned before how the early TBF-1 Avengers the RNZAF (the first 6 and at least NZ2503, NZ2504 and NZ2505))had the nose gun AND the wing guns. Photos I have seen of NZ2504 and her sisters seem to show that was their original configuration. Yet today NZ2527 has wings with no guns. And if you look at this photo (which I see has a photo credit to one Anthony Galbraith) of NZ2527 you can see the bulge on the wing (near edge of the yellow stripe)indicating she has the wing gun wings! So if 3 of the 6 TBF-1 had all three (nose and two wing guns)and the remaining TBF-1C (NZ2507-NZ2548) had only two (wing guns) which Avenger had the non-wing gun wings? Perhaps NZ2501 NZ2502? I've never seen photos of these RNZAF Avengers, has anyone got any photos? Maybe we can regain some of the missing links above. Here's two 'links'...  NZ2501 - Chief of Air Staff, Air Vice Marshal L. M. Isitt and entourage, inspecting a Grumman TBF Avenger. Royal New Zealand Air Force Station, Gisborne [?]. Isitt is standing centre on starboard wing. Aircraft is presumed to be NZ2501 - Date 1943 (PR1898)
NZ2502 - Group of RNZAF Personnel loading the hopper with Superphosphate for the aerial topdressing trials. Royal New Zealand Air Force Station Ohakea. Avenger NZ2502 behind, with 'Popeye' nose art - Date 1949 (MUS990992) |
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Post by tbf2504 on Sept 25, 2021 9:09:36 GMT 12
If you look closely at the upper cowl of 04 in the lower photograph you can make out the channel in the upper fuselage skin in front of the cockpit and the "U" shape in the upper part of the cooling cowl flap where the fuselage gun was to be fitted. As Baz has stated when 04 arrived at Wigram in the 1970's those features were absent which indicates that at some stage (perhaps during the conversion to target tug in 1944) the upper fuselage skin was changed and the cowl flap replaced by a TBF-1C version. During our restoration in the late 1970s I cannot recall seeing any makrings (Scratches etc) on the cowl gun mounts in the cockpit that would show that a gun had indeed been installed at some time.
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Post by baz62 on Sept 25, 2021 14:38:08 GMT 12
. As Baz has stated when 04 arrived at Wigram in the 1970's those features were absent which indicates that at some stage (perhaps during the conversion to target tug in 1944) the upper fuselage skin was changed and the cowl flap replaced by a TBF-1C version. Except that photo is during the post war top dressing trials. She is in the blue with yellow tail scheme. This photo was at a post war airshow and you can see the gun trough.  nz2504tt by Barry Tod, on Flickr Just had a look back at the second to last paint scheme she wore (silver top and black yellow stripes underneath as was the very last one) And no sign of the trough. So perhaps it was done during the change of colours from blue/yellow tail to the silver in the 50s |
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Post by tbf2504 on Sept 26, 2021 9:37:05 GMT 12
Good spotting BAZ. That would make sense as by that time with the retirement of much of the TBF fleet there would have been a few spare cowls etc, to make the change to the last configuration.
Can you remember seeing the cowl gun mounts behind the instrument panel?
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Post by emron on Sept 26, 2021 14:00:22 GMT 12
From Papers Past: "The Press" 14-Dec-1959.  Press14_Dec_1959 by Ron Wilson, on Flickr Repeated 11-Jan-1960 with more detail.  Press11_1_1960 by Ron Wilson, on Flickr Bennett Aviation, Te Kuiti were the successful bidder. They later on-sold NZ2527 to Barr Brothers, Auckland, together with two engines and a propeller. Who can tell me the serial number of the R2600 now fitted to NZ2505 in Gisborne? |
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Post by baz62 on Sept 26, 2021 15:13:18 GMT 12
Can you remember seeing the cowl gun mounts behind the instrument panel? Too many years ago but nothing comes to mind. Wonder if a Musuem staffmember could undo the access panels and have a look? |
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Post by emron on Sept 26, 2021 16:58:39 GMT 12
Here’s a compilation I’ve made of some of the nose configurations that NZ2527 has carried over the years since it departed the RNZAF and before it’s final display one at MOTAT. The last version is the one complete with R1340 engine, Vildebeest prop and cowls from 2505. I wonder how that would have performed!  Credits: 1. P.Wheeler c.1964, Ardmore; 2. R.Dalziell Dec 1970, Rotorua; 3. Rotorua Daily Post? 1974.  Avenger_NZ2527 by Ron Wilson, on Flickr |
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Post by shorty on Sept 26, 2021 18:17:53 GMT 12
The airframe NZ2504 was on my inventory when I was at Te Rapa, the engine was held as a separate item, The previous inventory holder (Smokey Dawson?) tried to return it to stores on a Form 675 as "surplus to requirements" . The bid was rejected!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 26, 2021 18:43:29 GMT 12
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Post by emron on Sept 27, 2021 9:18:06 GMT 12
I’ve studied the series of photos over on the Hobbyvista site showing all the external and interior features of the nose gun position on NZ2505 and compared the right hand side of the instrument panels of 2504 and 2505.
2505 has the gun mount for a .303 installed, as well as the ammunition feed chute and the appropriate access panels on each side of the fuselage. However there is a blanking plate over the slot in the firewall where the barrel passes through. Both of the instrument side panels are of the later style as fitted to 2527 and 2539. Neither have the large rectangular aperture that the gun is loaded through from the cockpit and to allow for the gun to be attached on to the mount which is behind the panel. It’s likely that the other 4 TBFs in that series were the same. My conclusion is that this option was never used.
On the TBF-1c the hydraulic charging handle for the wing guns is located on the right hand panel. Both 2504 and 2505 have an empty hole of the correct size in that position. So as long as this charger along with it’s hydraulic circuit and the electrical circuit to the trigger were installed, then I’m sure the wing guns would have been operable and with far superior fire power anyway.
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Post by baz62 on Sept 27, 2021 10:41:24 GMT 12
Yes that sounds right to me. (Except the gun was .30 calibre not .303)
Cheers Baz
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Post by tbf2504 on Sept 27, 2021 14:16:04 GMT 12
Likewise the configuration for NZ2505 would have been similar to that for NZ2504, as stated I can remember the gun mounts behind the instrument panel but nothing else associated with the cowl gun operation
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