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Post by isc on Aug 27, 2015 22:25:03 GMT 12
All the RNZAF combat aircraft in WW2 were lend lease, maybe different. isc
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Post by beagle on Aug 27, 2015 22:29:57 GMT 12
didn't we actually buy the wellingtons ?
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Post by gungadin on Aug 27, 2015 22:30:45 GMT 12
Well that answers that question, combat aircraft can be leased.
I have seen reports that Germany, the UK and Spain have indicated that they would like to reduce their A400M fleet requirements which means Airbus may have some of these aircraft available for lease. This may have changed since the increased tension generated by the Nato/Ukraine/Russia situation.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2015 22:33:10 GMT 12
We bought the Wellingtons, then sold them back to the RAF before the war, Beagle.
However New Zealand bought several dozen Spitfires for the RAF by subscription. And NZ also purchased Hudsons through the Bonds For Bombers campaign, not all out 96 Hudsons were Lend-Lease.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2015 22:34:01 GMT 12
I have seen reports that Germany, the UK and Spain have indicated that they would like to reduce their A400M fleet requirements which means Airbus may have some of these aircraft available for lease. They must be shit if everyone's dumping them already.
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Post by kiwirob on Aug 28, 2015 7:17:50 GMT 12
Well that answers that question, combat aircraft can be leased. I have seen reports that Germany, the UK and Spain have indicated that they would like to reduce their A400M fleet requirements which means Airbus may have some of these aircraft available for lease. This may have changed since the increased tension generated by the Nato/Ukraine/Russia situation. Germany and Spain have indicated for at least 2 years that they want to sell some of their A400's. Spain and German don't want them because Spain can't afford them and German requirements are now for less than ordered. This is the first I've heard about the UK selling any, I don't believe it for a minute.
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Post by gungadin on Aug 28, 2015 9:06:53 GMT 12
Ainsworth: UK to cut A400M order By: CRAIG HOYLELONDON Source: 16:28 29 Mar 2010 The UK will continue its commitment to the Airbus Military A400M project, but is likely to cut three aircraft from its planned order for the type, UK Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth has announced.
Confirming that a formal contract amendment will be signed in the coming months by the EADS company and its seven European customers, Ainsworth says a recent agreement will see "Airbus Military deliver at least 22 aircraft" to the Royal Air Force.
This represents a reduction of three against its May 2003 order for 25 A400Ms; part of a European launch order for 180 of the tactical transports.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 28, 2015 11:16:55 GMT 12
Obviously the RAF has recognised their C-17's are the better aircraft for the job. We should take note of that and not buy second-best cast offs from Scarebus.
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Post by beagle on Aug 28, 2015 13:29:00 GMT 12
I wouldn't say they are shit Dave as countries are buying them, maybe they are used to European maintenance etc and not the simpler boeing way. Will the new look Safe Air be looking at trying to snaffle some Airbus work from Air New Zealand when they take over or do they really think we have only got one choice left with the A400
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 28, 2015 20:24:41 GMT 12
I'm only stirring Beags
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Post by atea on Aug 28, 2015 22:02:47 GMT 12
I would have thought that Gungadin was stirring as well but he's held his position for so long that it is clear to me he has to be an Airbus Rep. Surely........ And then he goes and admits that the UK is cutting their order. Must be losing faith in his own product
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Post by kiwirob on Aug 28, 2015 23:05:08 GMT 12
Ainsworth: UK to cut A400M order By: CRAIG HOYLELONDON Source: 16:28 29 Mar 2010 The UK will continue its commitment to the Airbus Military A400M project, but is likely to cut three aircraft from its planned order for the type, UK Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth has announced. Confirming that a formal contract amendment will be signed in the coming months by the EADS company and its seven European customers, Ainsworth says a recent agreement will see "Airbus Military deliver at least 22 aircraft" to the Royal Air Force. This represents a reduction of three against its May 2003 order for 25 A400Ms; part of a European launch order for 180 of the tactical transports. Why present 5 year old news as current?
At least 22 gives 22 as the mimimum number, which means it could be more, in fact I would put money on it that the RAF ends up with the original 25 plus a few more later on.
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Post by gungadin on Aug 29, 2015 9:45:11 GMT 12
My position re the replacement of the RNZAF’s C-130 fleet is as follows;. Replace with the C-17A: A excellent tactical airlifter that If you have a requirement to move equipment up to including the M1 Abrams MBT by air then this the aircraft you require. However, the production of this aircraft has been terminated so there is no more new aircraft available hence, the mad rush to buy up the 10 white tailed aircraft. This aircraft is too big and expensive for RNZAF requirements. Replace with the A400M: A new aircraft that has yet to prove itself. Whilst it can’t carry a M1 Abrams MBT it can carry a load up to and including the NA 90 as used by the RNZAF. This aircraft is in production and the capabilities are being developed by the various operators. This aircraft is a compromise between the C-130 and the C-17 and is the best option for the RNZAF Apart from the possibility of a new and westernised AN 70 being put into production the only new heavy lift tactical transport aircraft that will available in the foreseeable future is the A400M.
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Post by nige on Aug 29, 2015 10:26:20 GMT 12
My position re the replacement of the RNZAF’s C-130 fleet is as follows;. Replace with the C-17A: A excellent tactical airlifter that If you have a requirement to move equipment up to including the M1 Abrams MBT by air then this the aircraft you require. However, the production of this aircraft has been terminated so there is no more new aircraft available hence, the mad rush to buy up the 10 white tailed aircraft. This aircraft is too big and expensive for RNZAF requirements.
Replace with the A400M: A new aircraft that has yet to prove itself. Whilst it can’t carry a M1 Abrams MBT it can carry a load up to and including the NA 90 as used by the RNZAF. This aircraft is in production and the capabilities are being developed by the various operators. This aircraft is a compromise between the C-130 and the C-17 and is the best option for the RNZAFApart from the possibility of a new and westernised AN 70 being put into production the only new heavy lift tactical transport aircraft that will available in the foreseeable future is the A400M. Good grief Gungadin, not only do you claim to know exactly what the RNZAF's requirements are and what its best options are (what do you base your "insider" knowledge on?), your posts aren't adding to informed discussion, especially when you use non-existent M1 Abrams MBT's to back-up your anti C-17 claims. The NZDF of the 21st Century has heavier, protected Army vehicles (LAV's and MHOV trucks), heavier helicopters (NH90's) and a raft of critical combat support elements that need to be moved efficiently from point A to point B around the globe NOW, not in the post 2020's when the A400M reaches FOC. I have stayed out of this debate to avoid endless thread speculations, awaiting the official decisions to be announced so the merits of the decisions can be debated. However it seems to me that IF C-17's were to be acquired, with a number of 2 being floated by the Govt as a 757 replacement (and then probably a sole 737 type for occasional VIP), it does lead the way to a number of A400M's being acquired sometime around 2020 (if not earlier) to replace the 5 C-130H's. If you are an Airbus rep, that will then be good news for you!
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Post by beagle on Aug 29, 2015 10:39:42 GMT 12
I cannot see both C17 and A400 purchased. no need. it will be one or the other with a smaller tactical lifter for in country and pacific. either C295 or C27
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Post by nige on Aug 29, 2015 12:30:12 GMT 12
I cannot see both C17 and A400 purchased. no need. it will be one or the other with a smaller tactical lifter for in country and pacific. either C295 or C27 Here's the thing Beags, even "if" two C-17's were somehow acquired (or were to have been) as the NZDF's sole heavy airlifter, backed up by smaller tactical airlifters, wouldn't be prudent for the Government to be attempting to acquire at least three C-17's because if with only two there will be times when one (or both) a/c will be in maintenance? This is the lesson the ADF learnt when they realised their initial four C-17 buy wouldn't be sufficient. They have now doubled their fleet to eight. I suggest until we know the outcome of the air transport review, plus it has been mentioned the budget was around or over the two billion dollar figure, that a mixed potential C-17/A400M fleet is not necessarily out of the question (especially if some European nations are cutting A400M orders and NZ gets a good deal). Smaller tactical airlifters are relatively cheap and 4 or so could be picked up for a couple of hundred million dollars.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 29, 2015 12:50:01 GMT 12
It'll be fine with just two aeroplanes. The Ministry of Defence will simply reduce numbers of NZDF personnel down again to adjust the loads down to a much smaller level and place a lot less demand on the new aeroplanes. Simple Government accounting.
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Post by gungadin on Aug 29, 2015 13:53:44 GMT 12
Hi Nige, FYI The C-17A can carry a single M1, M1A1 or M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank. I believe a M1's basic weight is around 70 tons. It probably won't be able to carry it very far due to high fuel consumption. However, no doubt this was a major factor in the development of the ER version.
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Post by atea on Aug 29, 2015 14:46:46 GMT 12
And so it goes on and on and on. I think it might be best to stop checking this thread.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 29, 2015 16:50:28 GMT 12
I agree Matt. I have always said that these elongated threads about what people think the NZDF should buy are pointless wastes of time. I cannot help every now and then throwing in a comment to see what the participants do next, but they usually go in ever decreasing circles anyway.
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