Boeing P-8 - the P3K2 Orion Replacement

[aspiringpilot23]

I live in the Manawatu and recently saw an unmarked P8 posiedon fly over in line to land at ohakea. As the P8 is a viable Orion replacement I was very exicted hoping that this is one step closer to closing the deal. Any one else seen or know anything about this?
Jack

[horicle]

I see the new government has looked in the cupboard and not found the $20B. Nothing new there but what worried me was another input that quoted the last Government was keen on the P-8. That worries me more. If we buy that clapped out heap of superior technology it will cost us too much.

What nobody mentions is the MQ-4C Triton that seems to have to go with it. OK, it may only complement the P-8 fleet but it seems universally needed. The U.S. Navy plans a fleet of 68 MQ-4Cs (Triton) and 117 P-8As to replace the ageing P-3C Orion force.
The RAAF is buying seven MQ-4C’s to supplement its fleet of P-8’s. India is negotiating a Triton buy (that can take a long time). Northrop Grumman is expecting to sell the Triton to both UK and Norway. With our proposed four P-8’s the ratios above give a need for three Tritons to have an equally effective maritime fleet. Did you know the first three Tritons for the USN including all operationally necessary system components, such as e.g. ground station, cost US$648 million.

As for the ‘clapped out’ accusation. You probably won’t remember that when Boeing went up against Lockheed’s P-7 (which incidentaly was an LRAACA - Long-Range Air ASW-Capable Aircraft) to replace the P-3 in the early 1990’s they used the 757 as the airframe of choice to fit the role gear into. Move on in time and when 12-15 years later the P-3 had to be replaced in a short time frame the 757 was no longer in production. So an airframe at the end of its development life had to be used instead. The 737 can’t take any larger engines, there is no space between the wings and the ground. It can’t take any more (or larger) main wheels without a serious centre section redesign. I think, from checking B737 tyre sizes, the main wheels have gone from 40 inch rims to 44 inch (H44.5x16.5-21) while the max t/o weight has gone from 50,000Kg to 85,200Kg but there are still only two pair of main wheels). It is selling because it has a captive market. USA bought it because they backed themselves into a corner when the P-3 fleet started running out of hours due to heavy tasking in the war against terror where it became a viable platform for overland surveillance as well as its traditional role which was fully occupying it in the Gulf waters. This may have helped in leading to the MMA concept. To get some input as to why the 757 was preferred Google - A Boeing pilot reveals why the 737 can't replace the 757.

The interesting question to ask our current operators is, how would a 757 fit our maritime requirements? Not a silly question.

[kiwiredley]

simple answer buy a kawasaki p1

[isc]

They might need something sooner rather than later, the fishery exclusion zone in the Ross sea has been formed, someone said "I don't think the Japanese whaling fleet will intrude the area" yer right. isc

[aspiringpilot23]

The Kawasaki p1 could be possible as the C2 is in Nz at the moment at ohakea tonight so possibly we may have a Japanese fleet?

[delticman]

Dec 1, 2017 21:50:20 GMT 12 aspiringpilot23 said:

The Kawasaki p1 could be possible as the C2 is in Nz at the moment at ohakea tonight so possibly we may have a Japanese fleet?

It left Wellington for Richmond on 29th, are you saying it came back?

[avmkiwi]

Does anyone else find it ironic that we are looking at Japanese aircraft to monitor the Japanese whaling fleet in the southern ocean.

[madmac]

Dec 4, 2017 15:30:36 GMT 12 avmkiwi said:

Does anyone else find it ironic that we are looking at Japanese aircraft to monitor the Japanese whaling fleet in the southern ocean.[/quote

No less than the fact the anti-whaling campaigners are probably one of the leading contributors to the continuation of whaling (fear of loss of face issue).

[horicle]

A while back on this thread there was the P-3 spares potential problem and the effect it would have on our fleet availability. I have just noted that the Germans have signed up for a US$158.5 Million System Refresh program with Lockheed Martin. This is to sustain P-3 operations until 2035. I think these airframes were originally Dutch (or close) because the Germans had Atlantics way back. The linking thought is 'what spares problem and who is having it'?
What rush is there to replace our P-3 fleet?

As a reward for reading this far you might like to look at this P-3 pic. mma.prnewswire.com/media/594280/Lockheed_Martin___P_3C_Orion_Maritime_Surveillance_Aircraft_Germany.jpg?w=800

[Dave Homewood]

You'll possibly find it was Germany and a couple of other nations that bought up all the spares leaving NZ out in the cold.

[madmac]

I see Airbus is talking about a MPA based on the A320NEO. aviationweek.com/singapore-airshow-2018/airbus-offer-a320neo-military-customers

That's going to have a lot better fuel burn than P8 & a deeper weapons bay but still doesn't appear to have a MAD.

[ErrolC]

Feb 8, 2018 18:52:18 GMT 12 madmac said:

I see Airbus is talking about a MPA based on the A320NEO. aviationweek.com/singapore-airshow-2018/airbus-offer-a320neo-military-customers

That's going to have a lot better fuel burn than P8 & a deeper weapons bay but still doesn't appear to have a MAD.

Unlikely to be a big drama to add it, it was done to the Indian P-8s.

[horicle]

I recon the 757 would make a better civil single isle conversion to MPA (Boeings first choice). Pity about no 757 production line.

[Deleted]

For what it's worth, 100% of the P-3K workforce I've talked to* say they and their mates are keen on the P-1 and C-2 combo and that parts commonality would be a great thing from their perspective.


*my wife's cousin works on Orions in avionics

[exkiwiforces]

Feb 9, 2018 15:44:40 GMT 12 @zacyates said:

For what it's worth, 100% of the P-3K workforce I've talked to* say they and their mates are keen on the P-1 and C-2 combo and that parts commonality would be a great thing from their perspective.


*my wife's cousin works on Orions in avionics

Especially since the new TTP mark 2 has come out and the on going issues with A400. I wouldn’t be surprised that the RNZAF turns Japanese and I was reading somewhere else that RAF and the MOD wanted the P1 instead of the P8 as the P1 was a far superior and greater flexibility than the P8, but the RAF got overruled by number 10 in order to persevere the so-called special relationship between the UK and US Governments.

[horicle]

I see on the DID news that Poland and Canada have joined the NATO group of France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain and Turkey in a 10 year programme looking to find follow-on ‘solutions’ for ageing maritime aircraft. They apparently want the whole gambit of anti-submarine and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance in the kit. Considering the closeness of the UK’s P-8 / P-1 call and the fact that the above countries have a mix of Littoral and Deep Blue requirements I wonder where it will lead. I think we should keep our P-3’s going as long as possible.

[Dave Homewood]

I thiought the RAF already has P-8's, they announced the purchase over a year ago and have had crews training in the USA for even longer.

[horicle]

Correct, they just haven't been delivered yet, and it was a close call. Probably political more than anything else. In my opinion not the first time the UK has got it wrong.

[Dave Homewood]

Well according to their crew members I have heard interviewed who have been training on them in the USA they have 100% got it right.

[beagle]

5EYES