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Post by beegeetee on Jun 17, 2019 18:59:51 GMT 12
Very expensive capital cost though , might be cheaper to buy manned assets Maybe. According to US DoD budget documents on the MQ-9B programme it seems that the cost would be about NZ$560 million for four aircraft. That would fit within the stated $300 - 600 million budget. Might only get three aircraft with spares and support. Of course you won't get a 35hr endurance with a manned aircraft. Depends what they want.
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Post by gibbo on Jun 17, 2019 20:57:39 GMT 12
Very expensive capital cost though , might be cheaper to buy manned assets Maybe. According to US DoD budget documents on the MQ-9B programme it seems that the cost would be about NZ$560 million for four aircraft. That would fit within the stated $300 - 600 million budget. Might only get three aircraft with spares and support. Of course you won't get a 35hr endurance with a manned aircraft. Depends what they want. I remember someone telling me it takes almost as many personnel to operate & maintain a UAV as it does for a manned aircraft... no idea if this is true or what factors need to be included but I guess someone still needs to fly it (multiple pers in shifts), others to process captured data, others to maintain airframe & software etc. I suspect the truth is, as in most cases, somewhere in the middle. Has anyone heard likewise or otherwise?
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Post by tfly on Jun 17, 2019 21:15:44 GMT 12
I’m no strategic military expert but wouldn’t it be more sensible to operate a small manned aircraft that could double up for transport , Search and Rescue and MPA? Something like the C295W. This could compliment the new C130J-30 nicely and (IMHO) offer the RNZAF a more flexible asset.
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Post by senob on Jun 17, 2019 22:15:00 GMT 12
Belgium has received US permission to buy 4 MQ-9B SkyGuardian UAVs for an estimated US$600 million which is about NZ$925 million. The Belgian order is for the 4 aircraft plus "two fixed certifiable ground control stations; five AN/DAS-4 multi-spectral targeting systems; 15 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; five AN/APY-8 Lynx synthetic aperture radars; and five detect-and-avoid systems. The contract also includes spare and repair parts, personnel training, technical and logistics support services and other related program support." General Atomics have pitched the maritime variant, SeaGuardian, to NZ so at present we could reasonably assume that it could be a similar cost to SkyGuardian with the changes being the radar, an EOS and an AIS. Whilst the US DOD budget documents show the individual MQ-9B platform cost , that is the flyaway cost only and doesn't account for all the other costs, such as those mentioned in the Belgian acquisition above. www.rotorandwing.com/2019/03/26/belgium-purchase-four-mq-9b-skyguardian-drones-600-million/defsec.net.nz/2019/02/20/seaguardian-new-zealand/In the long term, the UAV would be cheaper than a manned platform to operate because the UAV generally requires no more than 2 or 3 crew to fly it for its mission which could be 24 - 36 hours long depending upon the platform. A manned aircraft could have 4 or more crew depending upon the platform and missions that last, maybe 10 - 12 hours. Personnel costs are one of the most significant operational costs for NZDF.
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Naki.
Flying Officer
Posts: 67
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Post by Naki. on Jun 17, 2019 22:25:44 GMT 12
I’m no strategic military expert but wouldn’t it be more sensible to operate a small manned aircraft that could double up for transport , Search and Rescue and MPA? Something like the C295W. This could compliment the new C130J-30 nicely and (IMHO) offer the RNZAF a more flexible asset. HC-130J would be another somewhat larger manned option. Commonality with the C-130J-30. Decent range etc.
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Post by beegeetee on Jun 18, 2019 5:47:27 GMT 12
Belgium has received US permission to buy 4 MQ-9B SkyGuardian UAVs for an estimated US$600 million which is about NZ$925 million. The Belgian order is for the 4 aircraft plus "two fixed certifiable ground control stations; five AN/DAS-4 multi-spectral targeting systems; 15 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; five AN/APY-8 Lynx synthetic aperture radars; and five detect-and-avoid systems. The contract also includes spare and repair parts, personnel training, technical and logistics support services and other related program support." General Atomics have pitched the maritime variant, SeaGuardian, to NZ so at present we could reasonably assume that it could be a similar cost to SkyGuardian with the changes being the radar, an EOS and an AIS. Whilst the US DOD budget documents show the individual MQ-9B platform cost , that is the flyaway cost only and doesn't account for all the other costs, such as those mentioned in the Belgian acquisition above. www.rotorandwing.com/2019/03/26/belgium-purchase-four-mq-9b-skyguardian-drones-600-million/defsec.net.nz/2019/02/20/seaguardian-new-zealand/In the long term, the UAV would be cheaper than a manned platform to operate because the UAV generally requires no more than 2 or 3 crew to fly it for its mission which could be 24 - 36 hours long depending upon the platform. A manned aircraft could have 4 or more crew depending upon the platform and missions that last, maybe 10 - 12 hours. Personnel costs are one of the most significant operational costs for NZDF. Just a note; "technical and logistics support services and other related program support" wouldn't be included in the NZ purchase price budget, they are life of type costs and are part of the operating budget, not the aquisition budget. That US$600m includes some life of type costs.
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Post by senob on Jun 18, 2019 15:11:34 GMT 12
Belgium has received US permission to buy 4 MQ-9B SkyGuardian UAVs for an estimated US$600 million which is about NZ$925 million. The Belgian order is for the 4 aircraft plus "two fixed certifiable ground control stations; five AN/DAS-4 multi-spectral targeting systems; 15 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; five AN/APY-8 Lynx synthetic aperture radars; and five detect-and-avoid systems. The contract also includes spare and repair parts, personnel training, technical and logistics support services and other related program support." General Atomics have pitched the maritime variant, SeaGuardian, to NZ so at present we could reasonably assume that it could be a similar cost to SkyGuardian with the changes being the radar, an EOS and an AIS. Whilst the US DOD budget documents show the individual MQ-9B platform cost , that is the flyaway cost only and doesn't account for all the other costs, such as those mentioned in the Belgian acquisition above. www.rotorandwing.com/2019/03/26/belgium-purchase-four-mq-9b-skyguardian-drones-600-million/defsec.net.nz/2019/02/20/seaguardian-new-zealand/In the long term, the UAV would be cheaper than a manned platform to operate because the UAV generally requires no more than 2 or 3 crew to fly it for its mission which could be 24 - 36 hours long depending upon the platform. A manned aircraft could have 4 or more crew depending upon the platform and missions that last, maybe 10 - 12 hours. Personnel costs are one of the most significant operational costs for NZDF. Just a note; "technical and logistics support services and other related program support" wouldn't be included in the NZ purchase price budget, they are life of type costs and are part of the operating budget, not the aquisition budget. That US$600m includes some life of type costs. They are included in the acquisition budget. You will find them in the P-8, NH90, A109 and the C-130J-30 budgets. What you won't find will be day to day expenses like fuel, personnel costs etc. The technical and logistics support costs will include such things as manuals, maintenance, ongoing support, etc. All of that is paid out of the CAPEX, not OPEX. Interestingly enough weapons are not included in NZ CAPEX budgets but in the OPEX budget. They have moved to a Whole Of Life Costing model which is now becoming standard right across govt.
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Naki.
Flying Officer
Posts: 67
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Post by Naki. on Jun 19, 2019 7:32:52 GMT 12
I’m no strategic military expert but wouldn’t it be more sensible to operate a small manned aircraft that could double up for transport , Search and Rescue and MPA? Something like the C295W. This could compliment the new C130J-30 nicely and (IMHO) offer the RNZAF a more flexible asset. HC-130J would be another somewhat larger manned option. Commonality with the C-130J-30. Decent range etc. www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/paris-lockheed-unveils-maritime-patrol-kit-for-c-13-459096/
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madmark
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 78
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Post by madmark on Jun 19, 2019 17:33:14 GMT 12
Lockheed have been flogging the dead horse that is the SC-130J for quite a while now and no-one has gone anywhere near it. I think that'll be because 1 the "Roll On/Off" concept is fiction, you can't simply load a "MPA pallet" on and off in an hour or 3 as advertised, well, not if you expect it to work and 2 by the time you've spent the money developing and converting your C-130 into an MPA it'll be getting pretty pricey and still won't be a proper MPA. Just look at our new regular C-130s, over a billion for 5 frames, imagine how much they'll be with the MPA conversion? Lockheed knows the C-130J is coming to the end of its run and are desperate to flog a few more frames before its finally put out to pasture and are trying to squeeze a few more orders in, any way they can.
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Post by saratoga on Jun 19, 2019 17:57:10 GMT 12
Belgium has received US permission to buy 4 MQ-9B SkyGuardian UAVs for an estimated US$600 million which is about NZ$925 million. The Belgian order is for the 4 aircraft plus "two fixed certifiable ground control stations; five AN/DAS-4 multi-spectral targeting systems; 15 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; five AN/APY-8 Lynx synthetic aperture radars; and five detect-and-avoid systems. The contract also includes spare and repair parts, personnel training, technical and logistics support services and other related program support." General Atomics have pitched the maritime variant, SeaGuardian, to NZ so at present we could reasonably assume that it could be a similar cost to SkyGuardian with the changes being the radar, an EOS and an AIS. Whilst the US DOD budget documents show the individual MQ-9B platform cost , that is the flyaway cost only and doesn't account for all the other costs, such as those mentioned in the Belgian acquisition above. www.rotorandwing.com/2019/03/26/belgium-purchase-four-mq-9b-skyguardian-drones-600-million/defsec.net.nz/2019/02/20/seaguardian-new-zealand/In the long term, the UAV would be cheaper than a manned platform to operate because the UAV generally requires no more than 2 or 3 crew to fly it for its mission which could be 24 - 36 hours long depending upon the platform. A manned aircraft could have 4 or more crew depending upon the platform and missions that last, maybe 10 - 12 hours. Personnel costs are one of the most significant operational costs for NZDF. Just a note; "technical and logistics support services and other related program support" wouldn't be included in the NZ purchase price budget, they are life of type costs and are part of the operating budget, not the aquisition budget. That US$600m includes some life of type costs. Whole of life costs(WOLC) are part of the project. This includes projected disposal costs at end of life of type.
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Post by beaufighter4 on Jun 19, 2019 19:13:20 GMT 12
Please someone correct me if I am wrong, which I most likely are, this interest for the UAV is not only for the maritime patrol but will be able to fill some sort of ISR role
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Post by senob on Jun 20, 2019 20:23:28 GMT 12
Please someone correct me if I am wrong, which I most likely are, this interest for the UAV is not only for the maritime patrol but will be able to fill some sort of ISR role The UAV could possibly be a MALE (Medium Altitude Long Endurance) UAV such as the MQ-9B SeaKeeper being discussed here. It is a maritime surveillance UAV and would most likely be more concerned with NZs maritime approaches and areas of interest between the equator and the ice. By definition it will filling an ISR role, but to what level has yet to be determined. It would have a maritime surveillance radar, an E/O turret, AIS (ship id receiver), and maybe some basic EW capabilities such as ELINT. Any overland ISR at present is done by the P3s, will be done by the P8s and the govt may or may not acquire UAVs for such capabilities. The NZ Army apparently does have some small UAVs that they use atm.
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Post by senob on Aug 8, 2019 16:40:28 GMT 12
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Post by nighthawknz on Aug 14, 2019 10:18:13 GMT 12
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Post by senob on Aug 14, 2019 20:26:34 GMT 12
It appears that the govt are not equipping the Poseidons with missiles:
That'd be about right.
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Post by nighthawknz on Aug 14, 2019 21:15:16 GMT 12
It appears that the govt are not equipping the Poseidons with missiles: That'd be about right. I am sure that they are capable from the factory??? just as normal we will only buy the missiles it can fire after the fact that we would need them as normal...
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Post by madmac on Aug 15, 2019 11:02:07 GMT 12
It appears that the govt are not equipping the Poseidons with missiles: That'd be about right. I am sure that they are capable from the factory??? just as normal we will only buy the missiles it can fire after the fact that we would need them as normal... Some how we always seem to manage 80% of the cost for 20% of the effect.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Aug 15, 2019 14:46:02 GMT 12
You will probably find the aircraft will come "fitted for not with" in terms of the wiring, mounting points etc for external weapons
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Post by frankly on Aug 15, 2019 18:14:35 GMT 12
You will probably find the aircraft will come "fitted for not with" in terms of the wiring, mounting points etc for external weapons Incorrect. They're standard P-8As. They'll be fitted with the hard points and wring. Purchasing weapons is a seperate issue.
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Post by ErrolC on Aug 16, 2019 8:14:49 GMT 12
bit.ly/2TyELGVBoeing recently upgraded the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s (RNZAF) fleet of six P-3K2 Orion aircraft with state-of-the-art acoustics processing and training simulation technology ... Delivered under a US$22 million contract to enhance the nation’s airborne anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability, this is the first time the technology has been installed on P-3 Orion aircraft anywhere in the world. First awarded in late 2016, the project included upgrades and modifications to mission systems and aircraft components, as well as inflight and ground-based simulation for training, spares and maintenance support. With the first aircraft upgrades completed just under 18 months following contract award, the final aircraft is now complete – providing the RNZAF fleet with dramatically-improved ASW capability. This upgrade will help bridge the gap until replacement with the P-8A Poseidon to maintain a core capability. ...
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