suthg, just one correction to your above post. 609 wasn't an NZ Sqn, it was 609 (West Riding) Sqn, Royal Auxiliary Air Force.
They lost a LOT of their original pilots in the Battle of Britain and that is when a lot of Colonials were posted in.
Scrooge, PM coming your way. I have lots of original DTS's and BS specs, perhaps we can compare notes! I also have access to the UK MOD Defence Standards portal. Many DTD's are there, but there are large gaps in what they have.
I think 486 Sqdn (pilots only) was practically 100% NZers, including a few in the RAF. One Canadian was accidentally posted in at some time in 1943 I think it was, so he was almost immediately posted out to keep 486 Sqdn "pure". Of course the ground staff (which was not part of the sqdn, being a separate but dependent Servicing Echelon) was almost 100% RAF. Dave D
OK thanks for that Noooby, yeah, they were quite mixed, I remember now - Australians, Poms, Argentinians and others too. 486 SQ may have been the same too?
Belgium was well represented in 609 Squadron. After Dunkirk a number of Belgian pilots made their way to England, subsequently flying fighters in the Battle of Britain. There were not enough of them at that stage to form a Belgian squadron, so it was decided early in 1941 to concentrate the Belgians in one squadron and 609 was elected.
Many became prominent in Fighter Command. Remi Van Lierd, the Ortman brothers Victor and Christian, Francois de Spirlet, Rodolph de Grunne, George "Gin" Seghers, Jean Offenberg, Michael Donnet, Raymond Lallemant ( became an OC 609 Sqdn ), Charles Demoulin and others flew in 609 Sqdn at some stage.
Good luck to you Graeme; keep it up - am watching with interest.
it was 609 (West Riding) Sqn, Royal Auxiliary Air Force.
Although to be pedantic, during the war it was just "Auxiliary Air Force"; the Royal charter wasn't given to the auxiliary squadrons until after the war. Also of note, its CO at one stage was the late Great Roland Beamont, who provided much support for keeping the Tiffie in service after the issues that were afflicting it and it not being as effective in its intended role as originally believed.
Dave H, Yes, 485 Squadron was run pretty much in the same manner as 486, with almost 100% NZ pilots (including some in RAF), and almost 100% RAF groundstaff (plus a smattering of RNZAF wireless and armament tradesmen, also possibly a few instrument tradesmen). However the other Article XV squadrons (and 75 Sqdn) had no such restrictions, although they did tend to have a fairly strong Dominion representation in the aircrew department. Reason for this was quite obvious in that Air Ministry were not prepared to hold up crew training at OTUs by having to make up all-Dominion crews for individual squadrons, when they made little no attempt to stream nationalities in this way, and even had they troubled to do this, most Dominion crews for bomber and coastal squadrons would have had to be posted to non-Article XV squadrons anyway, as the RNZAF was restricted to just the seven units originally agreed in December 1940 (485 to 490, and 75). The numbers of NZ aircrew coming forward by late 1941 were sufficient to have formed quite a few new squadrons every year in various home and overseas commands. I believe that the RCAF and RAAF had additional blocks of Article XV squadron numbers allocated to meet demand, but for some reason the NZ allocation was never augmented in this way. Although a slight exaggeration, in about 1944 in NZ, I think it was the Minister of Defence (on Air Department advice) boasted that at this stage of the war the RNZAF was in theory capable of mounting a thousand-bomber raid on Germany single handed - all aircrew, any escorting fighters (Mosquitos of course, and all groundcrew,operations and meteorological staff, etc. However this was not even a remote possibility, as most of the RNZAF's ground staff were actually serving in NZ and the South Pacific, or in other war theatres, and much the same would have applied to aircrew, but it was an easily visualized demonstration of the size and breadth of even the tiny RNZAF that people in NZ could mentally grasp, never mind the impossible logistics and other heavy demands from other theatres and national interests. Must have made a few people sit up and take notice, and perhaps even a small swell of national pride? No doubt most people in NZ at this time thought that our airmen serving with the RAF were actually members of the RAF, and they were almost right on that, as the NZ Govt had very little control of those men, who were individually attached to the RAF for all things including command, operational deployment, tours of duty, postings, rations, accommodation, medical care, etc, and in fact even paid them. The NZ Govt was only obligated to top up their pay to equal RNZAF pay rates "at home". Compare this with the way the 2nd NZEF was set up, with the entire body of this force organized from NZ (although within strict adherence to Imperial defence policy and guidelines, etc.) and remained within this force throughout their overseas service, under all-NZ commanders. David D
Post by Dave Homewood on May 16, 2016 16:28:11 GMT 12
Interesting stuff there David. I do know in 1943 a decree came from the No. 3 Group Commander that No. 75 (NZ) Squadron should have only New Zealanders as their CO and Flight Commanders, and I think a few other positions like Navigation Leader, Gunnery Leader, etc, within the squadron. As a result the Flight Commander Geoff Rothwell (a Brit who now lives in Auckland) was forced to depart the squadron.
I wonder if the other squadrons, No's 487, 488, 489 and 490, also had a policy implemented for kiwi only leaders?
Post by angelsonefive on May 17, 2016 5:57:26 GMT 12
Good to see the signature of the great film production and set designer ( several James Bond films and Dr Strangelove ) Sir Kenneth Adam OBE ( 5/2/21 to 10/3/16 ) on JP843.
There is an interesting story about Ken Adam's flying training in the USA. He was about to graduate from his SFTS Course at a British Flying School in the States when he was suddenly told to pack his bags, as he was being posted that day to a Hurricane OTU in Canada. Young Sgt Adam was most disappointed to miss his Wings Parade and the graduation parties etc, but he had no choice.
Years later, on a visit to the USA, Ken Adam found out the reason for his abrupt departure from the country. His German parents had immigrated to England some years before WW II and Ken had been born in Berlin. It seems that the local FBI had noticed that one of the British cadets was born in Germany and wanted to arrest him as a spy ! The RAF authorities decided it was best not to argue the toss and removed Sgt Adam to Canada PDQ.
Kenneth Adam was one of just three RAF pilots of German birth. His younger brother, Denis, was another and also became a Typhoon pilot.
Author: Swift to the Sky – New Zealand’s Military Aviation History Author/publisher: For Your Tomorrow - A record of New Zealanders who have died while serving with the RNZAF and Allied Air Services since 1915 & A Passion For Flight - New Zealand aviation before the Great War. Publisher of Gp Capt C M Hanson’s By Such Deeds - Honours and Awards in the Royal New Zealand Air Force, 1923-1999
It is now a further 2 months since I last posted and quite a lot has happened since on the JP843 project in Canada and even in NZ! There has been a lot of NZ support for the project so far - so many kind thanks to those who have pasted Likes on our Facebook page and some have even kindly donated some funds, usually quite privately, so thanks again to those that have. Yes, there are two forum members helping in various ways with this effort, both in finding data and Manuals for a whole variety of equipment on the plane, not the least of which being maintenance and rebuild manuals for the Napier Sabre engine and the Typhoon plane itself. Noooby has excelled in this area scoring some 85GB of documents so far, some of which have cost an arm and a leg - hope the rehab is going well Graham! Items such as the propellers - various types - and hubs etc are key to the return to flight of this plane and when you need just one, you get manuals for 30 others!! Hence the name of the Project - Typhoon Legacy Co Ltd.
We have another new member to the Prject team, a Mr Nicolas Walter - a Frenchman who has marvelous skills with Solid Works - a 3D drafting programme. Attached here are a few of his recent efforts - some are incomplete and require further dimensions and size and locations of bolt holes etc
But more recently in NZ, I was able to share the project on Photo Boards at the recent D-Day Open Day at Ardmore on Sunday June 5th (D-Day was June 6th 1944) I was very pleased to see the real interest by the aviation public and some who even knew of the project such as John Rummery, Replicore Radiators. We had an interesting chat. So thanks for those who approached and asked questions - some were very knowledgeable about the Napier Sabre engine even!
I had a postcard setup by the local Impact Photographics shop and I was able to easily give 30 away!!
You can PM me for more details, the Website is listed below and on there is a link to our Facebook page. Please join us!
Also there is another page for donations but there is a great story in there about the project, and Ian Slater's love for the hawker Typhoon, even selling a Cessna 150 to pay for 15,000 celluloid Hawker drawings!! About 3,000 of which, relate to the hawker Typhoon and the Napier Sabre engine.
It was a clever compact arrangement with two crankshafts to share the teeth load by splitting the drive reduction into two layshafts each (the four corners, cranks being centre top and bottom) and off a further reduction onto the sun gear on the prop shaft by four bevel gears - all sharing 1/4 of the power and forces. There were balance beams on the ends of these corner layshafts to equalise the end thrust and still be compact.
The two horizontal centreline gears power the sleeve valve drives (worm and wheel) (and internally via a narrow shaft to the supercharger drive). To get the motion to them, there are two small offset gear wheels off the first reductions in the corners. These are like the camshafts in a traditional engine.
This engine is a sea recovery unit and we are soon to soak it and in 6 mo ths time, attempt to split it - not to repair and run but for measurements and assembly techniques.
They appeared complex but in general had less moving parts for same number of cylinders and had very good power to weight ratio and fuel economy - AND speaking of Halford's engines, - once teething problems were solved, had very long TBO - eg his other designs, the Cyrrus and Gipsy series of engines, not to mention Halford's two early jet engines the Goblin and the Ghost which reliably powered and continue today to power the Vampires and Venoms!! Yes by the end of war, the Napier Sabre had a very good TBO because there was much less ring and sleeve wear than traditional OHV engines.