Coloured Vincent Tail

[Dave Homewood]

Yes quite a few had the spats removed, I suspect it was when the grass runways were muddy.

I have actually seen other photos showing the fin colours too but never got round to finding the thread again and adding them. If I come across them again, I will.

[Dave Homewood]

Oct 3, 2022 13:49:43 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

What is also notable, and can also be seen in one of Shorty's photos, is the stripe along the side between the roundel and the exhaust of three of these Vincents in what looks to be the same colour as the fin. 

[davidd]

Yes, a very good catch, and irrefutable I would say. Note the front half of one of the Moth Minors on left of that photograph.

[Dave Homewood]

Oct 4, 2022 11:45:27 GMT 12 davidd said:

Note the front half of one of the Moth Minors on left of that photograph.

I don't think it is a Moth Minor. I think it is a Miles Whitney Straight. This photo joins the other one and you can see the whole plane. Below is a crop




 

[baz62]

Oct 4, 2022 12:00:26 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Oct 4, 2022 11:45:27 GMT 12 davidd said:

Note the front half of one of the Moth Minors on left of that photograph.

I don't think it is a Moth Minor. I think it is a Miles Whitney Straight. This photo joins the other one and you can see the whole plane. Below is a crop




 

Yes I think you are right on the type Dave.

[davidd]

Agreed, I started off with a rather incomplete specimen (will teach me), looks like it could be AFH (Public Works Dept?), which I think would be the only one not already impressed by this time - in fact it never was. Presume that large (dark) flag in front of the Vincent/Vilde to left of the MWS must signify something important - perhaps something to do with flying safety? And looks as though the building programme for the station is still far from complete.

[shorty]

I wondered if the flag might have been red and signifying that the aircraft were armed? (ready for Lake Grassmere Range?)

[davidd]

I was thinking that myself Shorty, am trying to think which AP might contain the procedure for such an eventuality, perhaps in the Armament Manual (I think there was such a thing). Cannot imagine it would be left to Station Standing Orders or other lower level Orders, as it is the sort of information which should cover the Air Force in its entirety, and would thus be instantly available to those responsible for enforcing such things.

Edit: There was an AP 1641, RAF Armament Manual, perhaps this included instructions for bomb loading procedures to be followed on ground, etc? By its number, this AP may have first appeared in about 1938 - 1940 period, although it may have only included details of bombs, guns, and perhaps turrets, servicing of same, etc. However, the flying of a (perhaps red?) flag next to bombed up aircraft may have been only a short-lived procedure (if this was the case, and we have no real evidence that it was), it may well have been superseded by something not quite so cumbersome. Whether an early edition of AP 1641 survives in New Zealand is unknown to me, but these may have had the "Warning Flag" deleted entirely, or pasted over with the new procedure (if there was one). Have had a lot of experience of ploughing through early AP's, they can become a bit of a nightmare with such over-pastings, or new information in thin (and now fragile) paper strips, or worst of all, entirely new, revised inserted when ring-binder covers were introduced.

[Antonio]

And to add to the conundrum, there's no sign of weapons (bombs) on the Vickers-beestes

[shorty]

I was thinking more along the lines of machine guns more than bombs

[Dave Homewood]

They are Vincents. No. 2 FTS did not use Vildebeests. They were used for advanced flying training before the Harvards came online.

Was bombing or air firing even in the curriculum for pilots training there at that time? Or did it come later when they went to an OTU?

[davidd]

Air Bombing, Air Firing, Navigation, Formation Flying, Night Flying, Instrument Flying, etc., were all included in the syllabus of the Advanced Training Squadron of all RNZAF FTS's/SFTS's throughout the war (and in fact pre-war), and somewhat similar in the post-war training organisation, at least up till about 1958, perhaps a little later. After that, armament training on squadrons or OCUs, etc.
Every pilot learned these skills without exception, certainly while the Fast Jet regime was in force. Now largely gone of course, not so many bombs, very few guns these days, I think only P-3s and upcoming P-8s, plus NH-90s have provision for armaments these days.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks David, I was thinking that was the case regarding those Advanced Training Squadron course disciplines, but I was not sure if the early war on biplanes was the same as later on Harvards. I was going to look out some logbooks and check but I got distracted. So thanks for confirming.