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Post by Ian Warren on Jan 31, 2017 12:50:32 GMT 12
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Post by aerofoto on Feb 1, 2017 3:12:41 GMT 12
There were 4 light cruisers of this class - AJAX - ACHILLES - LEANDER - NEPTUNE - ORION If I recall my naval history correctly .... 3 of these ships had RNZN connections throughout WW2, but, I think AJAX, NEPTUNE, and ORION were the only members of these 5 sisters that served under the HMS (rather than HMNZS) banner. Jack S.HARKER authored a superb book about LEANDER .... entitled "WELL DONE LEANDER". He also authored a similar book about ARCHILLES too .... entitled "HMNZS ACHILLES". And another book also on the NEPTUNE as well .... entitled "ALMOST HMNZS NEPTUNE". A little history on each of these 3 light-cruiser sisters .... HMS AJAXHMS AJAX was laid down on February 7th 1933, launched on March 1st 1934, and commissioned on June 3rd 1935.  Her motto was "Nec Quisquam Nisi Ajax" .... "None but Ajax can overcome Ajax". She served as part of RN West Indies, Pacific, and South Atlantic squadrons prior to the outbreak of WW2 .... and served with distinction in the South Atlantic in particular during the Battle of the River Plate (alongside HMNZS ACHILLES and HMS EXETER in persuit of the German pocket-battleship ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE on December 13th 1939). She then served in the Medeiterranean/at Crete, and in support of the North African campaign too .... as well a participating bombardment of Gold Beach prior to the D-Day invasion, and later in the Agean during the re-occupation of Greece. She was decomissioned during February 1948 and scrapped during 1949. HMS AJAX history .... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ajax_%2822%29HMS/HMNZS ACHILLESHMS ACHILLES was laid down on June 11th 1931, launched on September 1st 1932, and commissiomed on October 10th 1933.  Her motto was .... "Fortiter in Re" - "unyielding in action". She was transferred to the NZ division of the RN during 1937 (in company with HMS LEANDER) .... becoming HMNZS ACHILLES .... and was assigned to the Falkland Islands during October 1939 as part of the RN South Atlantic squadron where she served with distinction at the Battle of the River Plate (alongside HMS AJAX and HMS EXETER) in persuit of the Germnan pocket-battleship ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE) on December 13th 1939. She returned to New Zealand during February 1940 and from where she then undertook trans-Tasman convoy escorts, and later joined the ANZAC Pacific squadron after Japans entry to WW2 and serving with honouyrs at Guadalcanal between 1942 and 1943, then at Okinawa during 1945, both in conjunction with Australian and US forces. She was returned to the RN during 1946 and decommisioned on September 17th 1946. She was then sold to the Indian Navy and recommissioned on July 5th 1948 .... as INS DELHI. During 1956 she starred as a prop in the British Vista-Vision movie production "THE BATTLE OF THE RIVER PLATE" of 1956. In 1968 she was present at the granting of independence to Mauritius (in Company with HMS TARTAR), and was decommissioned for scrapping on June 30th 1978. Her "Y" turret was presented as a gift to the New Zealand government and is currently on display at the entrance of Devonport Naval Base in Auckland, New Zealand. HMNZS ACHILLES HISTORY .... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Achilles_%2870%29HMS/HMNZS LEANDERHMS LEANDER was laid down on September 8th 1933, launched on September 24th 1931, and commissiomed on March 24th 1933.  Her motto was "Qui Patitur" .... "Who suffrs conquers". She was transferrd to the NZ division of the RN during 1937 (in company with HMS ACHILLES) .... becoming HMNZS LEANDER. During WW2 she served in both the Pacific and Indian Oceans (sinking the italian raider RAMB off the Maldives .... and capturing the Vichi-French freighter CHARLES LD near Madgascar and Marituius) .... in search of the German raider PINGUIN. During June 1941 she was trnsferred to the Mediterranean .... and then back to the Pacific during 1943. On July 13th 1943 she participated in the Battle of Kolombangara near the Solomon Islands (in company with US forces) .... which resulted in the sinking of the Japonese cruiser JINTSU .... and during which action she was extensively damaged. Though repaired in NZ she was effecively out of the remainder of WW2. She was returned to the RN on August 27th 1945 and involved in the Corfu Channel Incident of 1946. She was decommmissioned during February 1948 and scrapped during 1950. HMNZS LEANDER HISTORY .... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_LeanderHMS NEPTUNEHMS NEPTUNE was laid down on September 24th 1931, launched on January 1st 1933, and commissiomed on February 12th 1934.  Her motto was "Regnare est servire" - "To reign is to serve". Although never transferred to the NZ division of the RN she was operated by a predominantly NZ crew. During late 1939 she was assigned to the RN South Atlantic squadron and participated in the search for a German raider (then believed to have been either the ADMIRAL SCHEER or ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE .... it was the GRAF SPEE), but, was too distant to participate in the River Plate action of December 13th 1939 (in company with HMS AJAX, HMS EXETER, and HMNZS ACHILLES) .... but .... was stationed at Uruguay following the River Plate action which trapped the GRAF SPEE within the netral port of Montevideo, and resulted in its later scuttling. She participated in the battle of Calabria on July 9th 1940 and during which she was "the ship" which first sighted the Italian fleet .... resulting in a famous signal reading "enemy battle fleet in sight" .... not communicated since the Napoleonic navol wars. Later leading leading the cruiser squadron assigned to FORCE K during 1941 .... to intercept and destroy German and Italian convoys en route to Libya .... she struck 2 Italian mines during the evening of December 19th/20th 1941 .... and struck a 3rd mine (which wrecked her propulsion and steering gear) whilst reversing out of the mine field .... then later struck a 4th mine which resulted in her promptly capsizing and sinking with the loss of some 737 of her crew. Other accompaying vessels were also similarly damaged by mines and unable to render assistance. Of 30 survivors from NEPTUNE´s entire crew all but 1 persished and whom was recoverd by an Italian naval patrol .... some 5 days later. HMS NEPTUNE HISTORY .... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Neptune_(20)HMS ORION Her motto was "  ?" - " ?" HMS ORION was laid down on September 26th 1931, launched on November 24th 1932, and commissiomed on January 18th 1934. During 1940 she was transferred to the Mediterranean and participated in the bombardment of of Bardoa, and at the Battle of Calabria during June 1940 .... and sank the Greek freighter ERMIONI which was ferrying supplies in support of the Italian defence of the Dodecanese Islands. Later during 1940 she escorted Malta bound convoys .... and also undertook trooping .... and in March 1941 participated in the Battle of Cape Matapan. She was damaged during an attack on a Crete bound Germnan convoy on May 22nd 1941 .... then suffered extensive damaged by bombing on May 29th 1941 during the evacutation of Crete. From mid 1942 she was engaged as a convoy escort .... to Africa and the Indian Ocean .... and was returned to the RN Mediterrnean cruiser squadron from October 1942 where she was once again engaged in conyoy activities, and in support of the inavasion of sicily during 1943. She then participated in the Normandy Landings during the June 1944 D-Day invasion .... where she earned the distinction of firing "the very first" shells. Following WW2 .... she was then involved in the Corfu Channel incident (in company with HMS LEANDER) during 1946. She was decommissioned during 1947 .... and scrapped during 1949. HMS ORION HISTORY .... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Orion_(85)Mark C Bogota Republica de Colombia at, |
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Post by Ian Warren on Feb 1, 2017 8:25:29 GMT 12
Mark , There was a fifth unit in the class, HMS ORION completed 16/1/1934.
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Post by davidd on Feb 1, 2017 9:14:41 GMT 12
Just a couple of points re the above ships worth bearing in mind. Ships of the NZ Division always retained the "HMS" designation, and the "HMNZS" prefix did not come into use until 1st October 1941 when the NZ Division was retitled as the Royal New Zealand Navy, and other associated NZ naval forces were likewise given new designations (the Reserve and the Volunteer Reserve). So there was no HMNZS Achilles at the River Plate, nor HMNZS Leander until October 1941.
HMS Neptune never had a "predominantly NZ crew". When sunk in December 1941, her crew comprised some 750 men, of which exactly 150 were New Zealanders, all lower deck excepting two officers.
David D
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Post by aerofoto on Feb 1, 2017 10:13:12 GMT 12
Just added a bit about ORION Ian .... forgot about that one  .... but .... couldn´t find the ships motto  .... so .... have left that particicular detail open. Mark C Bogota DC Republica de Colombia |
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Post by Ian Warren on Feb 1, 2017 11:04:56 GMT 12
Just a couple of points re the above ships worth bearing in mind. Ships of the NZ Division always retained the "HMS" designation, and the "HMNZS" prefix did not come into use until 1st October 1941. David, that is a good point, Ross Gillet's book points this out, but many other publications of the 1970s and 1980s are incorrect in saying they were HMNZS ships and specifically the 'Battle of the River Plate'. |
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Post by Ian Warren on Feb 1, 2017 11:23:23 GMT 12
Just added a bit about ORION Ian .... forgot about that one .... but .... couldn´t find the ships motto .... so .... have left that particicular detail open. Regard to the books by Jack S.HARKER, I did have the one on the HMNZS Achillies, I lent it out but it never was returned, as for "WELL DONE LEANDER", one book I constantly got out of the Riccarton High School library, always returned and had be meaning to get a copy, close to it couple years back. One thing I did with my father, he noticed my interest with the ship, also picked up on my scratch building skills, he come up with an idea to build a scale model, sorta as a partnership, we spent hours using this book from the school, It would have been a superb model, I worked on the deck and started the superstructure, good old dad really kicked in and made the hull out of tin, we had a basic model, in the real world looked as finished as it was on the real world slipways.... It sorta stalled from there, school finished and work started, still well and truly a work in progress when few years later, thieves decided they could not take it so simply Jumped on it ! |
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Post by aerofoto on Feb 1, 2017 13:45:19 GMT 12
They´re "GOOD" books Ian .... and I understand they can still be obtained from online sources. Whilst I was aware of the existence of each of the books I´ve quoted above .... I only have the one on LEANDER .... but .... being out of NZ, and in Colombia at the moment, I couldn´t access it to make reference to the auhors name whom I couldn´t remember, but, found the all the information I needed, plus the sources of supply also, per GOOGLE searching Somewhere at hom,e I have a coupe of the old AIRFIX 1/600 scale kits of the AJAX .... which I´d intended to try´n convert so as to represent both ACHILLES and LEANDER. A future project Mark C Bogota DC Republica de Colombia |
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Post by Ian Warren on Feb 1, 2017 14:14:31 GMT 12
Yeah, Mark, I have checked the online stores, it is a book I really wanted and so close to getting my grubby little mitts on it, in the same condition but at a third of the cost, plus there was the official 'Leander' booklet my father had but that was also disappeared. On thinking about it I do have a contact who may have knowledge of were this person selling these books maybe, 'Penny Just Dropped' due to your suggestions. That was another good source, the 'Airfix' HMS Ajax model, I did have one those many years ago, the model we were working on would not fit in a standard bath tub, it was built at around 1/72 scale, that would have been a dang great model had it been completed and survived  |
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Post by Bruce on Feb 1, 2017 18:54:49 GMT 12
Not specifically a Leander Cruiser, but this amazing video shows the convoluted process of launching and recovering a Walrus / Seagull from a 1940s Royal Navy warship.
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Post by aerofoto on Feb 2, 2017 1:02:00 GMT 12
That 1/600 scale AIRFIX kit of the AJAX has been re-released about 4 times since the 70´s (as pèr the following box art below) .... albeit that it was originally a 1960´s conceived kit ....
It was also released by MPC whom acquired the AIRFIX brand (under the US GENERAL MILLS banner .... I tthink it was) for a short time during the 80´s (erroneously marketed as "a destroyer) .... when AIRFIX disappeare fo a short while ....
And it then appeared "once again" during the late 80´s/early 90´s when AIRFIX brand was resurrected ....
I don´t think AIRFIX (or anyone else) ever retooled this kit for either of its re-releases.
I think it can still be procured, but, pobably not locally (in NZ).
With the aid of official plans it probably wouldn´t be difficult to modidify this kit on order to represent either one of the five sisters among this class of light cruisers .... albeit that "IT WOULD" require some fairly extensive scratch building .... but aided by good references .... both effort and patience would probably be quite rewarding
It "IS" a very valid point .... and the reason why I made reference (presumeably corectly) to the "NZ division of the RN" in my above/earlier capsule histories of the relevant ships. I s´pose that sort of (later) distortion of actual RNZN history probably comes about as the result of we NZ´rs wanting our contributions to WW2 being recognized (individually) .... for whom "we are" and the part "we played" .... rather than simply being acknowledged as achievements of the RN/British Empire .... is my interprtation Interesting documentary about the Battle Of The River Plate (48 minutes duration) .... whilst the facts are (by now very well documented in naval history) some of the POV´s that may have influenced judgements and decisions by the prime individuals involved (on both sides) are possibly less well known but referenced in this particular production .... A few of excerps for the 1956 movie "BATTLE OF THE RIVER PLATE" .... Note the reference to "STACEY" (in the gun directory capsule) within the above clip. He was a NZ´r on ACHILLES .... whom I actually knew personally during the 80´s Mark C Bogota DC Republica de Colombia |
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Post by Ian Warren on Feb 2, 2017 8:43:01 GMT 12
Mark, I do like those little clips from the old movie, course the the leaking out of the info in the final clip is quite funny, course the use of the US Navys 'Des Moines' class as the 'Spee' , still a fun movie, I have not seen that since I was a kid and in Black and White. Very sure finding the 'Airfix' model here would not be a problem in Christchurch, I'll have to watch the the documentary later this afternoon, Thanks for posting the different box art, a 'Destroyer'  |
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Post by aerofoto on Feb 2, 2017 11:00:48 GMT 12
OOH .... I´d be "very surprised" if you find that kit retailing anywhere in NZ at the moment Ian .... but .... you may prove me wrong It´s just that I´ve been involved with/closely following the plastic modelling hobby for more than 45 years .... and I´ve not seen that kit particular maketed in NZ for the past several years now. Mark C Bogota DC Republica de Colombia |
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Post by nuuumannn on Feb 2, 2017 20:02:18 GMT 12
Nice drawing Ian, good to see the Leander getting a bit of press. Watched a bit of the documentary, interesting; doesn't mention that the night engagement before Graf Spee entered Montevideo harbour was fought only 10 miles off Punta del Este; crowds gathered on the shore to watch the unfolding battle. The Uruguayan navy cruiser 'Uruguay' went out to intercept the ships when they entered Uruguayan waters and crossed paths with ships on a number of occasions. Here's a couple of photos from the Museo Naval in Montevideo pertaining to the Achilles and Ajax.   This is a model of the Ajax in a diorama; it was a big mural with this model of the Ajax in the front. Odd.    Harwood's dress uniform.   Not related to any of this, this was on display in the museum without any explanation of why it was there.  Not wanting to turn this into a thing about the Graf Spee, I thought this might be of interest, however; outside the museum, one of the Graf Spee's 5.9 inch guns.  In the British Cemetery is this head stone; whilst the British buried their dead at sea, three bodies washed ashore and were buried in the Cementerio Britanico.  |
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Post by aerofoto on Feb 3, 2017 0:41:25 GMT 12
I don´t think there´s any problem commenting here in regard to the GRAF SPEE .... after all she was "there", as we were too, and that´s why an action took place
In regard to this very early stage of the war (River Plate action in particular) I think it´s important to acknowledge that "a certain amount of respect" existed between both sides for each other .... and which has only intensified over the decades since the war (both sides are victims .... even in victory .... as what both exprienced/suffered in action tends to be the common bond among "them"). My understanding is many of the merchant seaman prisoners whom were being held on the GRAF SPEE (unbeknown to the RN at the time) even attended the funeral for those members of her crew that were killed in battle .... and also LANGSDORF´s funeral a few days later too .... as a token of thei respect and which is something only prefessional seaman really appreciate.
There have also been River Plate veterans reunions over decades past (that´s how I met STACEY .... from the ACHILLES) .... both on the British, New Zealand, and German side .... and which "all sides" have attended.
A similar kind of respect/comraderie has also developed among the few remaining surviving crew of BISMARCK .... and those on RN ships which "had to" chase her through the Atlantic and destroy her.
The respect, and comeraderie, among (former) foes and that often exists during times of conflict too .... or develops later .... is my focus/point
JUST GOING OFF-TOPOC HERE .... for a moment
There´s a story about a certain cadet officer on HMS DORSETSHIRE (I think it was) .... whom noting an armless BISMARCK survivor struggling to cling to a line with his bare teeth (apparently) and dived overboard in attempt a rescue him. He was later court-marshalled by his commanding officer on the DORSETSHIRE (for leaving his post during action stations) .... although the RN apparently quietly dismissed the case with little more than a strong censure of this cadet officer "not to do it again". Up until several years ago a number of the few remaining BISMARCK survivors were actually quite vocal in regard to their feeling that the German government should honour that British cadet officer with "a medal for humnanity" .... and that´s their own words.
GETTING BACK ON-TOPIC NOW .... in regard to one "NUUUMANNN´s" presentation on one of a gun from GRAF SPEE ....
I understand one of the range finders from GRAF SPEE was also recently recovered too (as was the bronze eagle from her stern) and is apparently on display somewhere else .... in Montevideo .... or it might be in Buenos Aires.
Found a couple more interesting videos ....
GRAF SPEE and the River Plate battle full length period news reel footage (rather than short 10 secondclips we´re probably accustomed to having seen) .... spliced with SCHARNHORST or GNEISENAU in places unfirtunately .... but .... otherwise auhentic and quite interesting too ....
GRAF SPEE wreck recovery ....
Mark C
Bogota DC
Republica de Colombia |
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Post by Ian Warren on Feb 3, 2017 10:41:24 GMT 12
Thanks Grant, and a good collection of photo's memorabilia, one Museum I have not be visiting due to a few issues I have
Mark, some Great footage, seem in before but still good to see again, I did phone the one and only model shop left in CHCH for interest sake, and No, they don't have the kitset in stock tho they said they could get it brought in.
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Post by aerofoto on Feb 4, 2017 2:19:44 GMT 12
YEAH .... I think trying to procure that particular kit "from retail sources in NZ" could be akin searching for a needle in a hay stack Ian .... and I very much doubt even ACORN MODELS, in CHC, could aquire it on indent either .... and if they did, then, it would likely be at some rediculously inflated price bearing in mind the shipping impositions of postage from abroad It "IS" currently an out of production kit at the moment so far the AIRFIX range is concerned .... but .... is bound to meterialize again sometime in the near future .... I´m sure. I did a bit of searching for it myself .... via MBN HOBBIES in Morrobin, Melbourne, Australia (and which, from my own personal exoperience, is a "good source" of supply .... in fact I´ve often found it cheaper to purchase kits from there, and still pay the shipping to NZ on top of the purchase price (evben with currency differential), than it is to actually purchase the same kit in NZ), but, "without success" .... HOWEVER .... what I did find existed was a sheet of "photo etched parts" for the AIRFIX HMS AJAX kit (produced by WHITE ENSIGN MODELS) and which I "didn´t previously know" existed. So .... if one can possibly locate the AIRFIX HMS AJAX kit .... plus the WHITE ENSIGN produced photo etch for it also .... then .... one could really be cooking with gas Here´s a review on this kit .... using the said photo etch enhancements .... modelingmadness.com/review/misc/ships/pietajax.htm.... and here´s reference to the actual photo etch data itself .... www.whiteensignmodels.com/p/WEM+1600+HMS+Ajax+PE+617/5348/#.WJSR8Dieb-0.... and here´s another modellers depiction and review of the very same kit, but, supporting one of the dazzle pattern camouflage schemes applied to AJAX (probably in the mediterranean) during WW2 .... steelnavy.com/FelixAjax.htmMark C Bogota DC Republica de Colombia |
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Post by Ian Warren on Feb 4, 2017 8:27:06 GMT 12
It quite interesting to see a company tool up creating dies for a larger scale rather the 1/600, maybe 1/300 even 1/200 scale, today's CNC's rather are the bee knees for this sort of thing, but I guess today's modelling market has almost disappeared since the electronics have taken over, hence the reason for the scratch builds I did.
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Post by aerofoto on Feb 4, 2017 9:15:30 GMT 12
You´re possibly right Ian in that plastic modelling maybe isn´t as popular as it once was .... say 30 years ago .... BUT .... it "IS" still an extrtemly popular hobby .... and best of all is that whatever´s "re-tooled" and re-leased now is usually far better to work with than it ever used to be .... AND IN PARTICULAR .... whatever´s new (not having been previously released or represented) is usually of an exceptionally high standard quality-wise. In the case of the latter "it has to be" .... and precision engineering has ensured that it usually is .... albeit that it "IS" also now more expensive now than it ever used to be too.
Mark C
Bogota DC
Republica de Colombia
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Post by nuuumannn on Feb 5, 2017 10:43:41 GMT 12
You might be missing the point of why I said that, Mark; this thread's about the Leander and her sisters. If we want to talk about the Graf Spee, I have plenty of photos pertaining to that ship alone, that I took in Montevideo and Buenos Aires, but it'll go on a different thread.
The range finder and one of her anchors is on display outside the port, next to the custom house building in Montevideo. Originally the top housing for her Seetakt radar mattress was also recovered on top of the range finder, but it was deteriorated to the point that it's been removed. The eagle was on public display in a hotel in the city, not far from the Museo Naval, but the navy has placed it in storage at an undisclosed location to avoid controversy. I spoke to one of the museum folk and since the Germans want it back and the Uruguayan navy doesn't want to relinquish it yet, it's location is currently under wraps. There are photos of it in the museum. Also at the museum is a small anti aircraft gun range finder from the Graf Spee.
As for plans to raise it, a bit far fetched and what would they do with it and where would they put it? The money required would be enormous. It's a big ship, not to mention that it split in two just forward of the after turret. The hull is not intact. The bridge work was removed once it was scuttled because it was a danger to shipping; it's only 8 kilometres from the city, and is in relatively shallow water, around 65 feet. Contrary to popular belief, you can't see it from Montevideo at low tide and because the waters in the Rio de La Plata are so murky and brown there's no way you can see it from above.
There are plenty of memorials around the city pertaining to the battle and the Uruguayan tourist authority has published a brochure in Spanish and English detailing the battle and significant places around the city to visit, if so inclined. Very helpful of them, I think.
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?" - "
.... but .... couldn´t find the ships motto 
.... so .... have left that particicular detail open.
