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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 15:15:09 GMT 12
We'd have to look at the ORB and probably the Summary of Events document in terms of weather and mitigating factors against flying but I'll be honest I don't have it for 485 for this period, my real interest with 485 is 1941 to 1943. Hopefully somebody here has the ORB, both Records of Events and Summary of Events for this period and can contribute. The problem might be compounded by the fact that you have both 485 and 349 competing for airframes for training purposes and from only one aerodrome and logistically planning training flights so that neither unit interferes with the other unit's training flight areas.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 24, 2017 15:19:01 GMT 12
I just hard a look at Bill Kain's logbook, whilst he was Station Commander at RAF Predannack between 10th of September 1944 and June 1945 he never flew the Typhoon even once. A bit odd as he was regular RAF and a keen fighter pilot who seemed to enjoy jumping into new types.
While at Predannack he had his own Spitfire coded "DK" (for W/C Dereck Kain) up till January 45 and by Feb 1945 this had been replaced by a Hurricane, also coded "DK". Sadly he never recorded the serial or mark of either.
And he had his personal Auster LB313 which was either his personal hack or a station hack but he flew it loads. And on several occasions he also flew Proctor HM281 which must have been a station hack too.
On the 3rd of April 1945 he flew the Auster LB313 to France and then proceeded to fly all round France, Holland, and Belgium landing all over the continent, and then returning to England and to Predannack on the 9th of April. He flew his Hurricane again from Predannack on the 9th and 10th of April but by 6th of May he was back in Spitfire 'DK' so I wonder if this is the same Spit he'd had before.
On the 14th of May he flew Mosquito "1758" locally at Predannack, and on the 15th of May he flew "Tempest V" for the first and only time, in local flying. No serial is noted for that Tempest.
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 15:27:33 GMT 12
I think it's safe to say for whatever reason RAF Predannack at this time wasn't the most hectic aerodrome in southern England in terms of flying!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 24, 2017 15:42:18 GMT 12
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 15:50:51 GMT 12
Probably Dave, but I've spent a packet over at the NA over the years. I'm hoping somebody already has this and can enlighten us, or else some other poor sap can cough up the dough and post the info here!
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Post by baz62 on Sept 24, 2017 16:33:31 GMT 12
And he had his personal Auster LB313 which was either his personal hack or a station hack but he flew it loads. An Auster MK 1 which was sold in 1946 and flew as a civilian till being written off in August 1956. Wonder why he didn't fly the Typhoon? Maybe he didn't like the look of it or wary of the history of losing tails?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 24, 2017 16:49:34 GMT 12
Yeah, not sure.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 24, 2017 17:09:08 GMT 12
I just realised this is also an RAF Predannack photo from Bill's collection. It looks to be a briefing room, with map drawers on the left. The reverse says: "PHOTOGRAPHIC SECTION DATE 7.4.44 REF G/PRD/116 R.A.F. PREDANNACK"
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Post by isc on Sept 24, 2017 20:35:28 GMT 12
I don't think there was all ways a rush of volunteers to fly the tiffy. Even without it's problens it was a bit awe inspiring. After all that I think the Tempest was looked on as a more developed aircraft, a bit more user friendly. isc
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Post by noooby on Sept 25, 2017 2:36:25 GMT 12
Let me pull an aircraft card for one of the Tempests from the RAF Museum. Cheaper than the National Archives, they are expensive!!!
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Post by smithy on Sept 25, 2017 6:31:17 GMT 12
Let me pull an aircraft card for one of the Tempests from the RAF Museum. Cheaper than the National Archives, they are expensive!!! Please do Noooby. Anything which you can add would be greatly appreciated. And baz62 and isc, I think you are probably right. The Tiffie had a daunting reputation and by all accounts was not for the faint of heart. By this stage of the war they rectified the "falling off tail" feature but it was still a real brute. Clostermann gives a rather detailed account of his first flight in one in his "The Big Show". I had a poke around on the NA site and saw that unfortunately the March 1945 Records of Events section of the ORB is not listed which is a bit of a bugger but the February and April Records of Events and Summaries are available. I'm very intrigued now by how these Tempests would have been coded. The more I think of it the more I just cannot imagine that they remained flying for 7 or so weeks in earlier squadrons' codes.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 25, 2017 11:44:18 GMT 12
If, as you say, there was another squadron using the same pool of aircraft alongside No. 485 (NZ) Squadron,they'd not have been too happy if they were in OU codes, and vice versa, so perhaps a neutral code was used.
According to the listing of RAF Squadron Codes on Wikipedia No. 33 Squadron was the only squadron to ever use 5R- as its code. However the RAF Predannack Station Flight used LF- codes. Whether that applied to just Bill's Auster and Proctor, or if it was extended to the Typhoons and Tempests when No. 33 Squadron departed, who knows. Has anyone seen photos of Typhoons or Tempests marked as LF?
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Post by suthg on Sept 25, 2017 14:59:30 GMT 12
Bill Kain's Spitfire Codes and his Hurricane serial codes (not SQ Codes) will be available in the ORB records Jan and Feb 45 - well they should be. I did note that 609 SQ used the SQ codes and not the aircraft serials though, it varied from Sq to Squadron. 486, 438, 439, 440 and 198 Squadrons all used the aircraft serials... the pilots seemed to use the Squadron Codes in their logbooks.
Graeme
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 25, 2017 16:30:41 GMT 12
Bill was not flying operationally from there Graeme, the Spit and Hurricane were his hacks like his Auster, for darting about the countryside, as he was essentially station commander at a training base. So they will not be in an operational flying log, but they may be noted in other records.
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Post by smithy on Sept 25, 2017 18:52:54 GMT 12
If, as you say, there was another squadron using the same pool of aircraft alongside No. 485 (NZ) Squadron,they'd not have been too happy if they were in OU codes, and vice versa, so perhaps a neutral code was used. According to the listing of RAF Squadron Codes on Wikipedia No. 33 Squadron was the only squadron to ever use 5R- as its code. However the RAF Predannack Station Flight used LF- codes. Whether that applied to just Bill's Auster and Proctor, or if it was extended to the Typhoons and Tempests when No. 33 Squadron departed, who knows. Has anyone seen photos of Typhoons or Tempests marked as LF? We know that 349 was based at Predannack during the same period and for the exact same purpose - to convert to Tempests. Like 485 the shortage of Tempests meant that this was ultimately aborted and like 485 they had a month or so on Spit IXs before taking on XVIs. The first thing we need to ascertain is whether the Tempests I listed above used by 485 were the only Tempests at Predannack, in which case I think it's probably most likely they carried codes other than 485 or 349. I've started a thread over at the 12 O'Clock High forum asking for the Tempest serials used by 349 so fingers crossed somebody should be along shortly who will know.
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Post by smithy on Sept 26, 2017 5:30:53 GMT 12
OK, I've had an answer back and very interestingly a member has given serials for three different Tempests from 485. I was honestly expecting that 349 would be sharing Tempests with 485 but this suggests that there's the possibility that they weren't. In which case if both squadrons were using separate Tempests that would logically suggest that the airframes could be coded with their own squadron codes. Obviously we need some sort of evidence from a logbook or a photograph but the idea that there could have been Tempests carrying OU codes has moved ever so slightly closer.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 26, 2017 10:10:37 GMT 12
The plot thickens. Good stuff.
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Post by suthg on Sept 26, 2017 10:48:15 GMT 12
Can I ask Chris Thomas for you?
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Post by smithy on Sept 26, 2017 11:05:24 GMT 12
Can I ask Chris Thomas for you? Hi suthg, I've already sent Chris a message and am waiting to hear back. But thank you for the offer, great minds think alike! It really would be great if we could find some kind of definitive answer to 485's Tempests, most of 485's history is pretty well documented in terms of photos and information but these 7 or so weeks are a bit overlooked. Cheers, Tim
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Post by noooby on Sept 26, 2017 12:53:13 GMT 12
How about Kevin Wells? I've lost touch with him since he left Te Puke many years ago (was one of my teachers in High School), but surely he has a vast collection of 485 paperwork and photo's?
Still waiting to hear back from RAF Museum. Going from past requests, it often takes a week or two for them to respond.
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