HARS to operate warbird P-3 Orion

[ZacYates]

Copied from a Facebook post made yesterday afternoon:

AP-3C Orion Handover to HARS

HISTORICAL AIRCRAFT RESTORATION SOCIETY Inc

Media Release
CHIEF OF AIR FORCE, AIR MARSHAL LEO DAVIES
AP-3C ORION

The Chief of Air Force Air Marshall Leo Davies AO CSC, will be holding a special handover function at the Historical Aircraft Restoration Society facility, Illawarra Regional Airport, at 11 am Friday 3rd November following the RAAFAIR Australian Department of Defence’s recommendation to the United States State Department to release for historic flying operations one of the RAAF AP3C Lockheed Orion surveillance aircraft.

This is a very historic event recognising the role the Historical Aircraft Restoration Society (HARS) has played in saving our aviation heritage, in particular the RAAF aircraft that have served Australia since WWII. In fact HARS has over 20 former RAAF aircraft in its collection, many of those have been restored to flying and it is intended now that the transfer of ownership of the Orion has been approved, to also fly that aircraft in support of RAAF history.

The Orion replaced the Lockheed Neptune aircraft that had served with the RAAF from the late 40’s up to 1977. The new P-8A Poseidon aircraft is now progressively replacing the Orion aircraft in RAAF service which is expected to take place over the next few years. HARS not only operates and has a number of former RAAF Neptune aircraft (serial number 273 flying, and on public display 281 and now at our Parkes museum satellite 272). We also operate a Catalina flying boat which the Neptune replaced following WWII operations.

Media and the public are cordially invited to be with the Chief of Air Force making this presentation at 11 am on Friday 3rd November. No RSVP is required and there will be opportunity for the media and the members of the public to talk to the Chief of Air Force on the significance of this event and the very important role that the Air Force plays in Australian security.

The HARS AP-3C Orion has itself participated in overseas operations as well as searching for the lost MH370 airliner and many other very important security and historical events and the history of this aircraft will eventually be disclosed and showcased with it at our HARS facility.

They followed up with this:

The acquisition of an AP-3C by HARS is a really big thing. This requires specific approval by the United States Government.

Until the handover, it is still the property of the Defence Department and despite the fact it has been sitting on the tarmac at HARS for these few months, we have not had access to the aircraft - as it should be - and even though it has had the appropriate equipment removed.
Yes we are excited - as are the people here who have operated this aircraft in one of their previous lives.

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, I couldn't find it.

[Dave Homewood]

I thought this was old news.

They won't operate it for long with the spares crisis that abounds for the P-3 type unless they're getting a couple of others to turn into Christmas trees.

[Calum]

I think what is news is that they have got ADF/US permission fly it.

There are few civil P-3's in the US so I guess it's not out of the question

[Mustang51]

End User Approval is NOT an easy thing to obtain. We even had problems in that regard with the PV-1 and there were many days of discussions with the US authorities before I was able to obtain the necessary paperwork. I wont go into the problems regarding the painting of the aircraft's registration......

[ZacYates]

Oct 25, 2017 11:28:49 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

I thought this was old news.

Sorry Dave, my memory's pretty shocking so you're probably right. I was waiting for official word before posting anything.

[baz62]

Oct 25, 2017 11:28:49 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

They won't operate it for long with the spares crisis that abounds for the P-3 type

With many countries retiring the P3 and upgrading to newer airframes (eg: P8 etc) spares should be readily available.

[Dave Homewood]

But the issue is Baz the new spares have been bought up by the countries not intending to retire their fleets. Lockheed is no longer producing spares. If you buy old airframes to take spares off they only have a certain life in themselves. It's not like keeping Austers flying with bits of other old Austers.

[skyhawkdon]

There is hope for a flying Skyhawk in NZ yet!

[planecrazy]

She was present when I was there in July this year, she still had to have some military
stuff taken out of her before they could go to work on getting her in the air.

[isc]

The only problem with buying old machines to keep your old machine going is the parts that wear out on your machine have probably all ready warn out on the spare parts machine, doesn't matter if its an aeroplane, or an old tractor, or a washing machine. What is the compatibility of Electra with Orions as far as parts go, my guess is zero. isc

[baz62]

Oct 25, 2017 15:30:28 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

It's not like keeping Austers flying with bits of other old Austers.

Yes I see but even now 60 plus years after my Auster was built there are still brand new parts available. Of course the issue there is finding them! HARS will more than likely try and have a spares package in mind. Couple of engines and props and the mechanical history of the Orion will indicate the bits more likely to fail most often. Funnily enough I was talking you a friend who is ex RNZAF and used to work(and fly) on them and his take is the Orion is a fairly simple airframe unlike the more modern types in service today. Engines props and hydraulic pumps and related bits would be on his shopping list. Also there are a lot of current and retired RAAF engineers who know the type well. Look forward to seeing her fly again.

[Dave Homewood]

Oct 26, 2017 3:30:51 GMT 12 baz62 said:

Oct 25, 2017 15:30:28 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

It's not like keeping Austers flying with bits of other old Austers.

Yes I see but even now 60 plus years after my Auster was built there are still brand new parts available.

That is the very point Baz, that is the issue. From what I have been told Lockheed has ceased producing parts to support the Orion fleets around the world, which resulted in the bigger nations flying them buying up all the available new spares. So unlike the Auster, the Spitfire and other types, there simply are not new parts being produced to replace the items that regularly need replacement. Hence the urgency for the RNZAF to purchase a new fleet.

[Calum]

Whilst I share your scepticism Dave abut how long they will be kept flying there are plenty of P-3's in storage so I expect spares via the USN for military operators should still be available (obviously it depends on exactly what) . These were in the preservation section. I took these photos in July

IMG_1651 by The Hamfisted Photographer, on Flickr

IMG_1648 by The Hamfisted Photographer, on Flickr

IMG_1697 by The Hamfisted Photographer, on Flickr

IMG_1659 by The Hamfisted Photographer, on Flickr

[Dave Homewood]

If they're not already spoken for.

[baz62]

Well I would say HARS being the well organised group they seem to be (I'm still amazed at what they manage keep flying and the facility they have is superb) spares would have been something discussed, especially from their engineering people. Certainly a sight to behold all those P3s lined up!

[jp]

Rain on many other parades today Dave? If everyone in aviation preservation was as positive as your comments, there would be a couple less airworthy Mosquitoes in the world.....

[Dave Homewood]

Wow, I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I really like HARS and totally respect what they're doing, and I also think it's great that they have been allocated the Orion, and that they plan to keep it in airworthy condition. I am just pointing out some realities that it might not be so easy as many people think when the spares start to run out. I mean our Air Force has been struggling to keep their Orions flying with the spares crisis so why should it be any easier for a civilian organisation?

I wish them well. HARS are great, great people. Many of their members are forum members here, I have met a good number of them in person here in NZ and when in Aussie, and I consider them as friends so there's no way I am trying to diss anyone. If I have this all wrong then maybe someone from HARS or No. 5 Squadron RNZAF can let me know, but so far, I've heard nothing to the contrary about the spares issues.

As for the Mossies, I always believed they were achievable.

[colford]

From what I have heard via "the grapevine", is that as happened when HARS were allocated their Caribous from the RAAF, that part of the deal includes a spares package in order to make the P3 a viable long term airworthy part of the HARS collection. Further announcements will occur later regarding P-3s to be placed with other aviation and military history organisations as non-flying/static exhibits. Airframes for preservation at RAAF Museum Pt Cook and the AWM with significant historic value, plus potentially a gate guard for Edinburgh and maybe another for another museum are on the cards.

[noooby]

Dave, it should be easier for HARS, because they can buy parts needed from anywhere and because they don't have to maintain all the operational equipment.
Military forces are quite often constrained as to where they can purchase parts from. Usually the OEM or their designate.

Engines and props for the P-3 should be no problem. There are thousands of them around. APU is standard. Tyres are standard, as are the brakes. Cockpit windows are specific to type (different to Electra). Everything else is really just sheet metal. As long as you look after the wings (prone to corrosion due to the type of Aluminium), I don't see why this aircraft could't keep flying for another 50 years.

Pressurisation may be an issue at some point as it doesn't use bleed air (like a Herc) but depends upon engine driven blowers (horrible pieces of poop they are too!). Hydraulic pumps are pretty standard too, just their method of drive is different (electrically driven rather than engine driven like on the Herc).

Maintaining a flying example using the restrictions that military place on their parts suppliers/overhaulers - difficult. Maintaining a flying example without those restrictions, repairing as required yourself using the manuals - I don't see a problem.

I think all of us who worked on the P-3 agree that the airframe is pretty basic. All the crap put into it was the cause of most headaches! And prop deice. OMG prop deice.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Graham, that adds a bit of perspective. Cheers.