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Post by kiwined on Dec 25, 2018 12:08:10 GMT 12
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Post by kiwined on Dec 25, 2018 12:08:41 GMT 12
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Post by kiwined on Dec 25, 2018 20:17:45 GMT 12
NONE of the law enforcement operators I have ever visited that operate either Bell 419 or H135/145 have used two pilots, its always been one pilot and one or two police officers
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Post by frankly on Dec 30, 2018 7:17:14 GMT 12
NONE of the law enforcement operators I have ever visited that operate either Bell 419 or H135/145 have used two pilots, its always been one pilot and one or two police officers Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's a mystery to me why anyone would want 3 onboard. It will be interesting to see what the final equipment configuration is. From what I remember the RAN machines were never very highly specced, but did have some upgrades done during the five or six years they were in service. I'm not sure if they were ever fitted for IFR. |
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Post by Calum on Dec 30, 2018 13:14:56 GMT 12
Its always fun reading some of these posts  E The 3 x 429s that are coming for Eagle are the ex RAN 723 Squadron airframes (I did an air to air shoot with them a few years ago - nice airframes) I think the change to the 429 is a great move, over the last couple of years I have visited a number of agencies that operate the 429 in law enforcement and they love it. Will post a few pics here when I can. Its a very capable machine, PBSO in FL also do fast roping from it and many of the agencies use it for swat team insertions which I assume NZ Police will also do. Ned They are good machines, they have been well looked after.  I have heard that the FBI HRT may be looking at them and AusSOCOM also looked at them for their LUH program. I also won't be surprised to NSW POLAIR pick up 3 to replace their EC 135 and AS350 fleet Here's a couple images of the actual machines  IMG_6796 by Calum Gibson, on Flickr  IMG_3191 by Calum Gibson, on Flickr  IMG_0042 by Calum Gibson, on Flickr |
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Post by Calum on Dec 30, 2018 13:22:25 GMT 12
NONE of the law enforcement operators I have ever visited that operate either Bell 419 or H135/145 have used two pilots, its always been one pilot and one or two police officers Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's a mystery to me why anyone would want 3 onboard. The 429 isn't like a AS350 or even a EC 135. It's large and can operate up to 8000 lbs (7500 IGW plus another 500 on the hook) 3 people is hardly an issue, especially when your sensor console is in the back. I'm usre they will be able to feed sn It will be interesting to see what the final equipment configuration is. From what I remember the RAN machines were never very highly specced, but did have some upgrades done during the five or six years they were in service. I'm not sure if they were ever fitted for IFR. The 429 is IFR aircraft out of the factory (perhaps you mean NVIS?) . The RAN aircraft haven't had any upgrades over their life (they're only 7 years old). As you can see from the photos online they have floats, hoist and hook kits so already have a lot of the expensive kits fitted. They do have a better comms fitout than the green aircraft though  IMG_9443_Detail by Calum Gibson, on Flickr |
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Post by frankly on Dec 30, 2018 16:25:15 GMT 12
Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's a mystery to me why anyone would want 3 onboard. The 429 isn't like a AS350 or even a EC 135. It's large and can operate up to 8000 lbs (7500 IGW plus another 500 on the hook) 3 people is hardly an issue, especially when your sensor console is in the back. I'm usre they will be able to feed sn It will be interesting to see what the final equipment configuration is. From what I remember the RAN machines were never very highly specced, but did have some upgrades done during the five or six years they were in service. I'm not sure if they were ever fitted for IFR. The 429 is IFR aircraft out of the factory (perhaps you mean NVIS?) . The RAN aircraft haven't had any upgrades over their life (they're only 7 years old). As you can see from the photos online they have floats, hoist and hook kits so already have a lot of the expensive kits fitted. They do have a better comms fitout than the green aircraft though Were the RAN frames fitter for the higher gross weight mods out of the factory, or retrofitted? The higher gross weight option required a few extra bits and pieces to be fitted. The 3 people on board isn't a weight issue, it's one of both cost (average cost per police officer is $150K per annum, you need 5 people to have one extra person to cover a shift 24/7) and risk. Why put an extra person onboard? They're either adding to the risk profile, or reducing the capacity to transport people. |
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Post by Calum on Dec 30, 2018 19:50:53 GMT 12
The 429 isn't like a AS350 or even a EC 135. It's large and can operate up to 8000 lbs (7500 IGW plus another 500 on the hook) 3 people is hardly an issue, especially when your sensor console is in the back. I'm usre they will be able to feed sn The 429 is IFR aircraft out of the factory (perhaps you mean NVIS?) . The RAN aircraft haven't had any upgrades over their life (they're only 7 years old). As you can see from the photos online they have floats, hoist and hook kits so already have a lot of the expensive kits fitted. They do have a better comms fitout than the green aircraft though Were the RAN frames fitter for the higher gross weight mods out of the factory, or retrofitted? The higher gross weight option required a few extra bits and pieces to be fitted. The 3 people on board isn't a weight issue, it's one of both cost (average cost per police officer is $150K per annum, you need 5 people to have one extra person to cover a shift 24/7) and risk. Why put an extra person onboard? They're either adding to the risk profile, or reducing the capacity to transport people. They came with 90% pf the IGW kit fitted at the factory, a little bit was done at Nowra in late 2012, early 2013 IIRC. And I wasn't quite accurate when I said they hadn't had any upgrades, they have had one. |
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Post by kiwined on Dec 30, 2018 19:52:51 GMT 12
Frankly, Eagles primary task is patrol and responding to tasks when airborne or scrambled. The guy in the front is usually the senior guy who co-ordinates everything with the radios etc and will use the nightsun. The guy or girl in the back will operate all the maps and other specialised equipment. Its not reducing the capability to carry anyone and they have been operating with 2 police personnell since the start so has nothing to do with adding to the risk profile.
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Post by kiwined on Dec 30, 2018 19:56:40 GMT 12
Calum - Did a number of shoots with these airframes over the years.   |
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Post by frankly on Dec 30, 2018 21:18:52 GMT 12
Frankly, Eagles primary task is patrol and responding to tasks when airborne or scrambled. The guy in the front is usually the senior guy who co-ordinates everything with the radios etc and will use the nightsun. The guy or girl in the back will operate all the maps and other specialised equipment. Its not reducing the capability to carry anyone and they have been operating with 2 police personnell since the start so has nothing to do with adding to the risk profile. I'm pretty familiar with what the role is. I'm just saying that it's unnecessary in this day and age. If an Apache can operate with a two man crew, why is the cognitive load on Eagle so high they need three? Of course, there isn't any good reason. Time to update practices. And it is reducing ability to do other tasks. With a Senso in the back, there's less space to other PAX, like a crewie to operate the hoist they have fitted. There isn't a lot of space in there, it's still a light twin. I didn't suggest it was adding to the risk profile compared to the current operation. It's just unnecessary. |
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Post by kiwined on Dec 31, 2018 6:30:11 GMT 12
Well that's your opinion and everyone is entitled to one. Am pretty sure they know what they are doing. There is a reason they have 3 crew and thats their decision. And bottom line its the powers to be decision and thats all that matters |
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Post by frankly on Dec 31, 2018 7:01:02 GMT 12
Well that's your opinion and everyone is entitled to one. Am pretty sure they know what they are doing. There is a reason they have 3 crew and thats their decision. And bottom line its the powers to be decision and thats all that matters Do you know if they had anyone in there giving them advice Ned? I'm assuming they didn't use Airwork as the existing contractor. |
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Post by kiwined on Dec 31, 2018 10:49:31 GMT 12
Yep the new team at Advanced Flight had been over to the US and visited with units that operate the 429 such as NYPD etc. NZ Police ASU are also members of the ALEA and have access to all the info and knowledge bases that they maintain. Every couple of years the crews also go to the annual ALEA convention where they attend workshops and network with others. So in answer to your question yes they have been discussing the new platforms with various people, but also keep in mind the NZ Police bosses have a list of requirements that they want and Advanced Flight are sourcing what they need to to meet those requirements. Keith who owns Advanced Flight is a pretty switched on guy.
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Post by Calum on Dec 31, 2018 12:29:54 GMT 12
Frankly, Eagles primary task is patrol and responding to tasks when airborne or scrambled. The guy in the front is usually the senior guy who co-ordinates everything with the radios etc and will use the nightsun. The guy or girl in the back will operate all the maps and other specialised equipment. Its not reducing the capability to carry anyone and they have been operating with 2 police personnell since the start so has nothing to do with adding to the risk profile. I'm pretty familiar with what the role is. I'm just saying that it's unnecessary in this day and age. If an Apache can operate with a two man crew, why is the cognitive load on Eagle so high they need three? Of course, there isn't any good reason. Time to update practices. And it is reducing ability to do other tasks. With a Senso in the back, there's less space to other PAX, like a crewie to operate the hoist they have fitted. There isn't a lot of space in there, it's still a light twin. I didn't suggest it was adding to the risk profile compared to the current operation. It's just unnecessary. There's more room in there than you think.. Even after working on them for 5 + years I'm still surprised how much space is in the back of them. 6 seats fit comfortably (although it will be less with the console they will fit) And to be honest, the front left seat may as well be filled with a body, another set of eyes and hands is useful, especially at night. It also helps with lateral CFG when using the hoist to lift a weight, I assume the sensor operator will double as hoist operator, that will still leave room for someone to go down the winch and a couple of survivors . |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 1, 2019 9:13:27 GMT 12
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Post by kiwined on Jan 1, 2019 10:19:40 GMT 12
It came a LOT closer than you think.
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Post by ErrolC on Jan 2, 2019 18:12:19 GMT 12
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Post by kiwined on Jan 4, 2019 12:50:16 GMT 12
It came close enough that the pilot could recognise it was a Dji Inspire - so not a small drone.
Also Tony Monk from Heletranz who was flying that same night filming the fireworks going off for TVNZ also saw two drones flying illegally.
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Post by isc on Jan 4, 2019 22:32:45 GMT 12
I wonder if Tony Monk got some pics of the drones, maybe not published because of possible use in a prosecution. isc
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I have heard that the FBI HRT may be looking at them and AusSOCOM also looked at them for their LUH program. I also won't be surprised to NSW POLAIR pick up 3 to replace their EC 135 and AS350 fleet
