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Post by kiwiruna on Jun 7, 2019 11:05:54 GMT 12
Hi guys, With all the governmental hand wringing over the replacement of expensive aircraft both the Orion and Herc, is there any good reason to not go second hand, bear in mind I know nothing about maintenance, air frame fatigue ,finances, the inner workings of government,how women think etc.
There must be low use aircraft sitting in the bone yards which are younger than the 50+ year aircraft we are currently flying.
I realise that they will require replacement far sooner than new build but they would have to be better than what we have got now?
Also on a side note are there any rumblings about the selling off some of the LAV IIIs I know there was talk some years back of having something like 20 or 30 to many.
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Post by rone on Jun 7, 2019 11:45:40 GMT 12
Good Thinking. It has been done plenty of times previously, but in this day and age it is probably not the done thing. We are now too politically correct.
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Post by horicle on Jun 7, 2019 12:19:47 GMT 12
For the small number of airframes we are talking about it should be possible to get a fleet of the same mod fit/ production status. But then am I right in recalling the the first Beech fleet of hired aircraft had several different inst panel fits amongst the five airframes? It might be harder than you think.
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Post by fiftythree on Jun 7, 2019 13:16:48 GMT 12
The upgrade of the current C130 and P3 fleets brought them into the 21st century with regard to flight deck and associated systems. Second hand C130s or P3s out of DMB would likely have to go through the same upgrade or similar current day process or those two fleets would likely be back in the stone age for safety, interoperability, and current standards in general. Now second hand C-17A(ER) to replace the B757s, that would be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately they're in fairly short supply.
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Post by ErrolC on Jun 7, 2019 13:17:05 GMT 12
For the small number of airframes we are talking about it should be possible to get a fleet of the same mod fit/ production status. But then am I right in recalling the the first Beech fleet of hired aircraft had several different inst panel fits amongst the five airframes? It might be harder than you think. And what type were you thinking about? Are there any C-130H's sitting around with significant life left? All flogged to death until they were replaced by C-130J's, or still in service I would have thought? The Brits flogged their C-130Js in the Middle East because the A400Ms were delayed.
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Post by isc on Jun 7, 2019 14:28:49 GMT 12
I think any transport aircraft,C-130/C-17 is going to have it's last hour rung out of it before majour over haul time comes up before going on the secondhand market. Also when buying new part of the deal is the spares supply, and probably training.I suppose similar would happen with the P-8.
From what I heard it would have been cheaper to up grade the engines and props on our current C-130s than what they did, get them overhauled and stick em back on. isc
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Post by fiftythree on Jun 7, 2019 15:22:54 GMT 12
I think by the time they finally had all five C-130 super E's upgraded to C-130H(NZ) the cost and significant delays meant it would have been on par if not cheaper to have replaced with C-130J30.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 7, 2019 16:16:43 GMT 12
Second hand? But the Prime Minister is a millennial, they do not know the meaning of second hand or hand-me-downs.
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madmark
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 78
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Post by madmark on Jun 7, 2019 16:22:49 GMT 12
Given that the 2 main P-3 operators of the P-3 (Japan and the US) are retiring their fleets, parts for these aircraft are going to become significantly more expensive and difficult to obtain, minimising any likely cost savings. Any 2nd hand C-130s will almost definitely be totally knackered and likely leave us with similar prblems to those we have now.
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Post by nighthawknz on Jun 7, 2019 17:11:33 GMT 12
in the long run it ends up costing more and as stated, that the US and Japan are retiring the P3 parts will start to get harder to find... same with the C-130 they will most likely be Fked and need a complete overhaul... and then again in 7 years ... it cost more and more as they get older... it will just leave us exactly where we are now...
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Post by saratoga on Jun 7, 2019 17:18:51 GMT 12
We should just hang out for the new EV version...apparently.
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Post by pjw4118 on Jun 7, 2019 17:28:37 GMT 12
I have always wondered why we dont buy second hand , especially for the general purpose types. After all most of us drive second hand cars and look at how many hands the light civil aircraft go through in their lifetimes. Chatham Air seems to manage Ok with older bigger types and Hawiian Airlines continue to pick up all the used B717/DC9 s they can find. And with the front line military types look how Japan , Greece , and Germany have maintained their F4 and Corsair fleets thanks to the scrapman supplying bits. Even without a glass cockpit they are still formidable weapons , I wouldnt like to face these holding just an AK47. And there are spare aircraft around. A few years back at Davis Monthan we were shown 6 or 7 almost new ex Norwgian AF Hercs that had been returned under some Nato plan as they didnt have a budget for that many. The yard also contained unused spare , stock airframes that were drawn on by US and allied forces . They even had the production jigs for B2 bombers held there. So while we may need a few sophisticated aircraft so we can keep current in ANZUS , much of what the RNZAF does actually requires more aircraft of different types to carry out the various roles. At work we dont use the 10 tonner tail lifter for carton delveries That would be costly and dumb but we can afford a group of very suitable vehicles if we buy them at the right price . In the end it saves maintenance costs and reduces overall usage . They may not have glass cockpits like the bosses new racer , but in common they have four wheels and drive. Likewise I dont think that aircraft need glass cockpits in order to fly. And in common with civil aircraft operators and airlines we dont need a two year long capability check/ development period before they are put to work . The manufacturer has done this for us , thats why we bought it in the first place.
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Post by madmac on Jun 7, 2019 18:06:15 GMT 12
I see Belgium currently has 9 C130H's for sale, be interesting to know what state they are in, worn I guess.
The fiscal model (paying cost of capital out of operating budget [apparently without depression]) the NZDF runs under means its much more costly to keep spare airframes than it is for the US.
Older airframes require more maintenance support, so the excessive cost point comes early when the maintenance is contracted (regardless of what the accountants think) and when fleets are smaller.
We no longer have a buyers market for used western arms, good value requires an original new use for the item or really good timing.
It appears the pollies consider defence dollars to be little more than political donations to the US, so that sort of limits the windows of opportunity from whom to buy.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 7, 2019 18:23:36 GMT 12
It's not like it has not happened in the past, the RNZAF has willingly accepted and operated second hand Vincents, Baffins, Vildebeests, Hinds, Beaver, Otter, Andovers, P-40's, Boeing 727's, Boeing 757's, King Airs, Skyhawks, etc.
But nowadays the way things work if we buy a second hand fleet with only half their life left, there won't be the sufficient 30+ years of service left in them for the Ministry of Defence to finally decide what will replace them next. Imagine, you're putting pressure on a government department to actually make a decision and do some work. Nope, it'll never happen.
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Post by kiwiruna on Jun 7, 2019 19:41:57 GMT 12
Just to play devils advocate for a moment, yes its not an aircraft, and a one off but what about the HMNZS Manawanui isn't she about halfway through her life?
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Post by saratoga on Jun 7, 2019 21:13:54 GMT 12
The Manawanui is an interim replacement, to also enable and inform a development of whatever capability the Navy actually requires. Not too bad an idea if you aren't really sure of what you need right now.
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Post by pjw4118 on Jun 8, 2019 11:26:32 GMT 12
I knew a girl like that, and she eventually went off with a Russian. Perhaps we should look there !
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Post by mumbles on Jun 8, 2019 13:25:57 GMT 12
Second hand? But the Prime Minister is a millennial, they do not know the meaning of second hand or hand-me-downs. Ardern is actually Gen-X like myself, and we fully understand the value of second hand goods and hand me downs thanks very much.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 8, 2019 13:41:47 GMT 12
Ardern was born 26 July 1980. I looked up the definition yesterday before I posted this to make sure and it said anyone born after 1976, with another source saying anyone born after 1977.
Either way it was only meant in jest, so don't get all stressed Sam.
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Post by kiwiruna on Jun 8, 2019 13:54:39 GMT 12
I didn't know the Manawanui is just an interim replacement. I must admit it looks great saw it looming out of the fog and rain a week or so back, It looked like a large office block as the rain started to clear. However I'm a little concerned that we don't know what capacity we need and just bought something that will just do. Sorry for the slight rant but it can't be that difficult to buy the appropriate equipment for our services.
Does that mean our PM is an X man ooops I mean woman. I wonder what her super power is?
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