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Post by planecrazy on Jan 24, 2020 21:51:14 GMT 12
Awesome, be great to see some pic's one day, keeping the collection together would be a great tribute to such a forward thinker! Probably a little premature, will the collection be available for the public to view, understand if this is not going to be the case.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jan 25, 2020 8:17:00 GMT 12
With reference to the retention of John's aircraft collection in New Zealand. The legislation that applies to retention is the 1975 Antiquities Act. Aircraft come under section 4 of the Act. However, unless an individual aircraft has a unique history,if there are two or more examples in New Zealand then it can be sold overseas. In the case of the Mosquito there is one example (MOTAT, and another at Ferrymead) the P40s (MOTAT, Wigram (although not an ex-RNZAF one but still representative of the type), Masterton NZ3009, and for the Hudson, MOTAT and Wigram. Therefore in my humble opinion it would have to be a very strong case to stop these aircraft from being sold overseas. The relevant section of the Act is at the link below: www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1975/0041/latest/DLM432617.html#DLM432617
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Post by markrogers on Jan 28, 2020 15:11:09 GMT 12
I would rather that they didn't go overseas. No way.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 28, 2020 21:35:28 GMT 12
and for the Hudson, MOTAT and Wigram. Bill Reid has owned the Hudson for some years now Paul. It won't be going anywhere soon, it's in the Omaka AHC.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jan 29, 2020 8:23:05 GMT 12
Hi Dave, that's good news, and hopefully the others will remain in New Zealand
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Post by planecrazy on Jan 29, 2020 9:13:20 GMT 12
The Smith family have asked a couple of us to help sort & catalog the collection- and this is the focus currently. As part of this process, P40N NZ3220 - Gloria Lyons - has been moved to Omaka for inspection, preservation and Static Rebuild - and will then be returned to Mapua. P40E NZ 3043 will also be going to Omaka. The current intent is for the other aircraft/parts to remain at Mapua. Wow it would be awesome to see images of the two P40s assembled in their original condition, is the image with the bomb mission markings P40E NZ 3043 or P40N NZ3220? Does she have the Gloria Lyons logo on the cowl?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 29, 2020 11:23:19 GMT 12
The one with bomb markings and kill flags is NZ3220. However - although it wore those markings in the Pacific - I cannot work out why as that aircraft never saw any air to air combat, arriving in the Pacific after the last enemy aircraft had been shot down by the RNZAF Fighter Wing, and as far as I can find it only has a confirmed 34 bomb missions, not the 55 or so on the aircraft. That is puzzling
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Post by rayo on Jan 29, 2020 12:39:42 GMT 12
The one with bomb markings and kill flags is NZ3220. However - although it wore those markings in the Pacific - I cannot work out why as that aircraft never saw any air to air combat, arriving in the Pacific after the last enemy aircraft had been shot down by the RNZAF Fighter Wing, and as far as I can find it only has a confirmed 34 bomb missions, not the 55 or so on the aircraft. That is puzzling See rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/gl.html"A third P-40 (an N-20), NZ3220, was selected as the next candidate, and was duly marked. This aircraft managed to survive the war and the melting pot, and now is privately owned and stored at Mapua (near Nelson). The cumulative scores and missions of the three 'Gloria Lyons' P-40s were painted on the cowl of NZ3220. When it returned to New Zealand in late 1944, it was repainted in the Foliage Green/(NZ) Sky Gray scheme, but the markings were retained. These were 55 Yellow bomb symbols representing strike missions, and two and a half Japanese flags representing victories over enemy aircraft." Question did the real Gloria Lyons survive TB? Updated: Yes she did apparently! www.aikensairplanes.com/kittyhawk-mk-iv-rnzaf-no-4-servicing-unit-gloria-lyons/rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/10436/gloria-lyons-4-servicing-unit This is a vey good thread on the subject.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 29, 2020 15:55:05 GMT 12
"The cumulative scores and missions of the three 'Gloria Lyons' P-40s were painted on the cowl of NZ3220."
This is incorrect though. NZ3148 and NZ3167 also had no kills, and neither of them were involved in bombing as that only began in March 1944 after both those fighters had been destroyed.
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Post by rayo on Jan 29, 2020 19:16:41 GMT 12
Good luck on solving that mystery after all this time Dave' Still it adds further Mystic to an already famous aircraft?
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Post by harvard1041 on Jan 30, 2020 1:06:41 GMT 12
Thanks Dave - yes - talked with Chris Rudge - author of the great book 'Air to Air' describing the RNZAF Pacific Kills ... and we both think that the kills are probably related to one particular pilot, but not sure which one - and were transferred to the at least the last 'Gloria Lyons' P-40 NZ3220... but still a mystery as to which kills and which pilot. Will post a few photos as Curtiss & I work our way thru NZ3220 - it is pretty neat, real time warp stuff. Cheers Hvd1041
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Post by agalbraith on Jan 30, 2020 6:26:14 GMT 12
Thanks for that update curtiss and hvd1041
Sure is a treat to be able to examine these airframes. The closest I ever got to Gloria last time was about 2010? when John said I was welcome to make my way over to her as long as I was careful not to hurt myself. But to be honest it was difficult to see much in the light of one main door open. Pretty exciting to see how she looks today. I imagine NZ3043 has some great history here as well. I haven't really researched her...
Cheers and thanks again guys Anthony
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 30, 2020 7:30:10 GMT 12
I tried to research NZ3043 for the guys but sadly there is very little info as the Operations Record Books for most squadrons were useless at recording NZ-based activities. So it comes down purely to finding info in logbook, and so far I have only found her in the logbooks of Geoff Fisken (he flew this aircraft many more times than he flew NZ3009 or NZ3072!)and Stan Quill while he was initially with No. 14 (Fighter) Squadron, and the other entries I have are for about eight pilots who flew it at No. 2 Operational Training Unit. In between No. 14 Squadron and 2 OTU, she served with No. 17 Squadron too, but we only know the date that squadron was allocated her, and that's ll so far.
It is this sort of research that makes logbooks the key ingredient, and that is why I have been collecting copies of Flying Logbooks over recent years, and asking on the forum and Facebook if people can copy any logbooks they have. They help with the massive jigsaws of history.
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Post by johnnyfalcon on Jan 30, 2020 7:54:17 GMT 12
Great pics, thank you so much! Precious cargo!!
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jan 30, 2020 8:08:29 GMT 12
sorry to see that at some stage of its life, someone has punched holes in both sides of the windscreen, otherwise looks pretty good
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Post by ZacYates on Jan 30, 2020 8:24:42 GMT 12
Thanks Dave - yes - talked with Chris Rudge - author of the great book 'Air to Air' describing the RNZAF Pacific Kills ... and we both think that the kills are probably related to one particular pilot, but not sure which one - and were transferred to the at least the last 'Gloria Lyons' P-40 NZ3220... but still a mystery as to which kills and which pilot. Will post a few photos as Curtiss & I work our way thru NZ3220 - it is pretty neat, real time warp stuff. Cheers Hvd1041 John, I can't tell you how excited those photos have me! I'm speechless!! I tried to research NZ3043 for the guys but sadly there is very little info as the Operations Record Books for most squadrons were useless at recording NZ-based activities. So it comes down purely to finding info in logbook, and so far I have only found her in the logbooks of Geoff Fisken (he flew this aircraft many more times than he flew NZ3009 or NZ3072!)and Stan Quill Dave, off-topic but could you remind me if Geoff ever flew NZ3119?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 30, 2020 8:26:23 GMT 12
Geoff never even laid eyes on NZ3119 during his service, and certainly never flew it.
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Post by ErrolC on Jan 30, 2020 8:53:18 GMT 12
Thanks for sharing those photos. What's the story with the rear canopy? It looks like it is a single 'square' piece with no vertical bracing? Or is the bracing just not visible?
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Post by 185skywagon on Jan 30, 2020 10:00:05 GMT 12
Wow ! Absolutely amazing to see Gloria Lyons out in the light of day, thanks for the photos ! I see you dragged her the long way around - hope you had a pie at that bakery, they're not bad !!
My understanding is that 3043 is a lot more complete (engine, wing, gear legs etc?) will that be heading over to Omaka also ? Hope to see pics of that.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 30, 2020 11:22:37 GMT 12
I wonder who it was that went around the P-40's at Rukuhia and shot holes in the windscreens. I have seen a lot of them with holes like this in various photos.
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