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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 23, 2019 16:45:02 GMT 12
Chinese naval vessel heading to New Zealand for under-the-radar visit22/10/2019 Sophie Bateman  Chinese training ship Qi Jiguang is heading to New Zealand Photo credit: Twitter/@dafengcaoA Chinese naval vessel will soon dock in New Zealand waters for a visit that's gone unannounced by the Government. The Qi Jiguang is a training ship currently on a two-month tour of the Asia-Pacific region. The vessel has already visited Brunei, East Timor and Papua New Guinea. The New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) confirmed the upcoming visit but provided Newshub with no other details, directing questions to the Chinese Embassy. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT) also declined to answer questions, suggesting NZDF and the embassy would be better equipped with information. The Chinese Embassy did not immediately respond to Newshub's request for comment. The NZDF has increased its engagement with China in recent years, and it's not unusual for our Navy vessels to go on short exchanges with the Chinese military. New Zealand is responsible for patrolling a huge search and rescue area that stretches from Micronesia to Antarctica. Our limited naval capacity means we can't patrol the area on our own, so we partner with other nations such as China. Visits from international military are generally kept quiet by the Government. While there will likely be some kind of official greeting party for the vessel, it will likely remain on the down-low. The Qi Jiguang is carrying a crew of 517 consisting mostly of cadets, according to Chinese media. Over the course of the tour students will be trained in geography, astronomical navigation and other sailing skills. The state-run Xinhua News Agency reports the students will disembark at various foreign ports to visit other countries' warships, schools and training centres. It's unknown which New Zealand facilities they intend to visit, if any. While Xinhua says the tour is to "deepen the friendship with the people of the visiting countries and show the good image of the Chinese navy", Voices of America reports the tour is intended to tighten China's claim on the contested South China Sea and spread goodwill in a region dominated by Australian influence. In June three Chinese warships arrived in Sydney Harbour for an unannounced visit. Prime Minister Scott Morrison said the government was aware of the stopover ahead of time, and dismissed anger over the visit occurring on the anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre. Newshub. www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/10/chinese-naval-vessel-to-visit-new-zealand-for-under-the-radar-visit.html
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Post by mcmaster on Oct 23, 2019 17:01:06 GMT 12
"New Zealand is responsible for patrolling a huge search and rescue area that stretches from Micronesia to Antarctica. Our limited naval capacity means we can't patrol the area on our own, so we partner with other nations such as China"
Ok. Wonder how the joint freedom of navigation patrols in the South China Sea are going? ;-)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 23, 2019 17:07:00 GMT 12
I was surprised to read that apparently "...it's not unusual for our Navy vessels to go on short exchanges with the Chinese military." Is this true?
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madmark
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 78
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Post by madmark on Oct 23, 2019 18:34:38 GMT 12
How is it that people kick off when the USN are in this part of the world, but when the Chinese are in town no-one bats an eyelid? I know this is verging on the political, but given China's ambitions in the Pacific and the South China Sea I'm really uncomfortable with NZ's relationship with Beijing.
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Post by senob on Oct 23, 2019 19:15:25 GMT 12
I was surprised to read that apparently "...it's not unusual for our Navy vessels to go on short exchanges with the Chinese military." Is this true? Yep, there have been reciprocal port visits and possibly some training manoeuvres at sea, but nothing to complicated. The PLAN have also done some training with the RAN & USN. The PLAN did participate in the 2014 & 16 iterations of RIMPAC, but got uninvited from last years. There may have been cooperation on CTF-51 in the Middle East when we had a frigate there.
It's called defence diplomacy. Same as the PLAAF IL-76 Candid operating out of Whenuapai in recent times. We do the same with the Vietnamese navy as well and quite a few other navies. Naval ships have always been used for diplomacy because they are a sovereign part of a nation - national soil that floats - and as such are used to promote / extend a nations influence in a given area. In certain circumstances, when things get exciting and people get a bit hotheaded, it's called gunboat diplomacy. |
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Post by senob on Oct 23, 2019 19:22:13 GMT 12
How is it that people kick off when the USN are in this part of the world, but when the Chinese are in town no-one bats an eyelid? I know this is verging on the political, but given China's ambitions in the Pacific and the South China Sea I'm really uncomfortable with NZ's relationship with Beijing. Yes there are some who live in Aotearoa NZ who have a rather jaundiced view of the world. I noticed that they were all primed up for a big protest when a USN DDG visited a couple or so years ago, but it kind of fizzled because there wasn't a lot of support for them, and a seismic event near Kaikoura resulted in the DDG travelling to Kaikoura to help with the HADR effort. I did note that their Facebook page had quite a few posts from ex NZDF personnel who made some very eloquently worded suggestions about their protests and political viewpoints. For some strange reason many of those ex NZDF personnel are banned from said page and it's security settings changed. Said protest group are very quiet about the PLAN ship visit. Can't understand why myself. |
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Post by kiwiruna on Oct 24, 2019 11:39:41 GMT 12
This must have been what I'd saw earlier today,I got all excited as I was wondering if it was one our frigates back from Canada.
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Post by nighthawknz on Oct 25, 2019 9:11:41 GMT 12
This must have been what I'd saw earlier today,I got all excited as I was wondering if it was one our frigates back from Canada. Te Kaha not due back till next year sometime ...and I read some where late next year and Te Mana following year... not sure if it is correct though??? |
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Post by mcmaster on Oct 25, 2019 20:09:40 GMT 12
This must have been what I'd saw earlier today,I got all excited as I was wondering if it was one our frigates back from Canada. Te Kaha not due back till next year sometime ...and I read some where late next year and Te Mana following year... not sure if it is correct though??? Geez that’s a long time with no frigates and I don’t get why it’s taking so long. According to google the first RAN Anzac upgrade works took less than a year and trials bit over 6 months and that was a new local phased array radar. Isn’t the the NZ getting something more off the shelf? NZ should have grabbed a couple of our retiring FFGs as interim capability. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 25, 2019 20:20:34 GMT 12
It just proves we do not actually need frigates.
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Post by madmac on Oct 25, 2019 21:41:33 GMT 12
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Post by senob on Oct 25, 2019 21:59:43 GMT 12
It just proves we do not actually need frigates. How do you figure that? You could use the same logic for an ACF and P-8s claiming that we don't need either, when in fact we do. What it does actually prove is that 2 frigates is 1 not enough and that we require three.
"... I worked very closely with Derek Quigley on Defence Beyond 2000, since we both thought the defence force of the 1990’s was not well configured for the likely needs of the twenty first century. Neither was any likely government prepared to pay enough for a modern balanced defence force. That would have required at least 1.5% of GDP, instead of the 1% that was actually being spent. Choices, based on utility, had to be made. Helen Clark made those choices. The air combat force was disbanded, and the Navy was re-equipped through Project Protector for logistics and patrol tasks, as well as combat. The decisions made at the beginning of the twenty first century have shaped the defence force over the last twenty years, covering both the Helen Clark Labour and the John Key National led governments. They will be continued under the current government."
He hasn't resiled from that position and still pushes the line that the NZ public would not stand for an increase in defence spending, however for him to admit that we need 3 frigates is a change, albeit a small one, but a noticeable one.
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Post by nighthawknz on Oct 28, 2019 19:12:41 GMT 12
Not sure what the problem is exactly?... it's not as if the ship just turn up and said "let me berth..." it was all organised and cleared via governments (probably months ago... and probably planned sometime last year) so what is the issue exactly? The Chinese have had warships visit in the past what is any different about this one... other than this one is a training ship... www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11878768 |
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Post by mcmaster on Oct 28, 2019 23:46:49 GMT 12
Not sure what the problem is exactly?... it's not as if the ship just turn up and said "let me berth..." it was all organised and cleared via governments (probably months ago... and probably planned sometime last year) so what is the issue exactly? The Chinese have had warships visit in the past what is any different about this one... other than this one is a training ship... www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11878768I guess there is nothing to see re the visit itself rather it’s that everyone from the public to Govts are really on edge these days. I guess when a totalitarian state has the emerging military and economic ascendancy in your neck of the woods it can do that. |
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Post by nighthawknz on Oct 29, 2019 11:12:45 GMT 12
And that will be why it went unannounced an they probably got told best not to have open days etc
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dgd911
Flying Officer
Posts: 56
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Post by dgd911 on Oct 29, 2019 20:02:52 GMT 12
This is an interesting visit from PLAN and is likely a precursor to a more substantial visit by a PLAN task group consisting of a type 055 cruiser and type 052c and 052d missile destroyers. These ships will be of interest to the NZDF as China will be well aware that NZ will be looking for ANZAC frigate replacements.
Either the export version of the 052c or better the longer 052d hull would be of interest, even if it was just the hull and machinery so that sensor and weapons fit could be completed locally or Canada/Australia. An incentive for this is the significant value of exports to China and their desire to see NZ purchase Chinese heavy engineering.
Balancing the trade with one of our largest and growing export markets is a big incentive.
An NZ navy with a couple of type 26 frigates AND a pair of type 052d would sit nicely with all our trading partners. 😀
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Post by nighthawknz on Oct 29, 2019 20:12:35 GMT 12
This is an interesting visit from PLAN and is likely a precursor to a more substantial visit by a PLAN task group consisting of a type 055 cruiser and type 052c and 052d missile destroyers. These ships will be of interest to the NZDF as China will be well aware that NZ will be looking for ANZAC frigate replacements. Either the export version of the 052c or better the longer 052d hull would be of interest, even if it was just the hull and machinery so that sensor and weapons fit could be completed locally or Canada/Australia. An incentive for this is the significant value of exports to China and their desire to see NZ purchase Chinese heavy engineering. Balancing the trade with one of our largest and growing export markets is a big incentive. An NZ navy with a couple of type 26 frigates AND a pair of type 052d would sit nicely with all our trading partners. 😀 Will never happen... |
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Post by senob on Oct 29, 2019 20:29:03 GMT 12
This is an interesting visit from PLAN and is likely a precursor to a more substantial visit by a PLAN task group consisting of a type 055 cruiser and type 052c and 052d missile destroyers. These ships will be of interest to the NZDF as China will be well aware that NZ will be looking for ANZAC frigate replacements. Either the export version of the 052c or better the longer 052d hull would be of interest, even if it was just the hull and machinery so that sensor and weapons fit could be completed locally or Canada/Australia. An incentive for this is the significant value of exports to China and their desire to see NZ purchase Chinese heavy engineering. Balancing the trade with one of our largest and growing export markets is a big incentive. An NZ navy with a couple of type 26 frigates AND a pair of type 052d would sit nicely with all our trading partners. 😀 As nighthawk said, will never happen. Would be a huge OPSEC problem, and we would be well and truly off side with Australia, US & UK. Probably as much as the anti nuclear legislation / ANZUS crisis. It would be a major political, defence and diplomatic stuff up. Secondly, there is the quality of the builds. |
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