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Post by dongrant on Apr 27, 2020 21:43:15 GMT 12
HI, I’m hoping someone might be able to help me with more information of NZ’s first Beechcraft, the C17L Staggerwing that was impressed from the Auckland Aero Club in 1939. I’m particularly after a photo of her when she was painted in camouflage colours.
We think she was painted in camouflage though being one of NZ’s first air ambulances she may well have stayed in her original International Orange and Silver Wings. She crashed at Opotiki on April 1st 1940 while landing to pick up a stretcher patient to fly them to Gisborne. She was repaired at No 1 Aircraft Dept. Hobsonville and was back on line in 1941.
She crashed again at Taupo on February 1st 1943 and this time was taken to Rongotai where she wasn’t repaired until August 1945. It was at this time that the engine was replaced from the original Jacobs for a Continental from a tank.
If you can help with any info and especially photos I’d greatly appreciate it. You can see the history I’m creating on her on my Facebook Page ‘Kiwi Staggerwing’.
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Post by davidd on Apr 28, 2020 10:48:12 GMT 12
Most certainly NOT fitted with a tank engine. This would have contravened every rule in the book, TOTALLY illegal, whether for civilian or military use! I have heard of this mistaken belief many times, but the explanation is simple. A variant of the Continental engine under discussion (the R-670 I think it was, also referred to as W-670) WAS manufactured for fitting in armoured vehicles, but the inspection process was NOT the one used for aircraft engines, and not a single part used in these engines would have been acceptable for aviation use under any circumstances. Not certain who manufactured the armoured vehicle engines, may have been Continental, but I have an idea it was anther firm entirely. As the engine supplied to New Zealand in 1944-45 (initially ordered by RNZAF for one of the impressed Wacos) and the expectation was that all impressed aircraft (or those that survived) would be offered to their previous owners after the end of hostilities, there was no way that a non-aviation engine would be supplied. The manufacturer would most certainly know the engine was intended for an aircraft and would therefore have had to supply the log book along with all the other paperwork normally supplied with a brand new aero engine. The armoured vehicle engine would of course require a fan when in use to provide a good flow of cooling air to the buried installation. Incidentally on the test flight of this aircraft at Rongotai, the test pilot (CFI of Wellington Aero Club I believe) forgot to lower the u/c on landing - Doh!!!!!
David D
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Post by Peter Lewis on Apr 29, 2020 9:39:51 GMT 12
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Post by shorty on Apr 29, 2020 10:44:52 GMT 12
I heard a similar story about a "tank" engine being installed in to the first Fokker Triplane replica built in NZ (mid 1970s?)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 29, 2020 11:22:46 GMT 12
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Post by camtech on Apr 29, 2020 17:14:56 GMT 12
Noted - I'll correct that with a few other updates shortly. |
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Post by Bruce on Apr 29, 2020 18:44:38 GMT 12
I'd love the colour scheme info too - a 1/72 Staggerwing is waiting in my model stash to join my RNZAF aircraft collection! The only photo I've ever seen of it definitely in military service is a poor photo in "Aircraft of the Royal NZ Air Force" (Duxbury / Ewing / McPherson) page 52, where the aircraft is in the civilian Red / Silver but the Serial NZ573 is clearly visible on the fin. The problem is, the angle of the photo completely hides whether it had roundels at that point in time. I guess this was an interim scheme and with two major rebuilds during RNZAF service it wouldnt have kept that scheme. I suspect it was silver at one stage - camo would be Dark Earth, Dark Green with Yellow undersurfaces as that was how most of the impressed aircraft were repainted. Photos seem to be extremely rare, something I have come across many times when modelling impressed "lighties". My theory is film was expensive and difficult to obtain during wartime, and people couldnt be bothered "wasting" it photographing common light aircraft.
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Post by dongrant on Apr 29, 2020 20:03:49 GMT 12
Thanks everyone for your help. The ‘tank story’ I’ve seen online indeed from the ADF Serials. In Geoff Goodall’s Aviation history the engine is indeed a Continental.
‘Testflown after repair by DeHavilland. A Continental W-760-6A (220hp) was installed to replace the original Jacobs L-4’.
I’m curious about the ‘crash’ at Rongotai. According to the NZ Civil Aircraft 59 journal, the only crash post war was on 24th April 1947, when carrying three passengers ZK-AJS landed at Rongotai with the wheels up. It was recorded that the passengers didn’t notice anything unusual in the landing. Only the propellor was damaged and a replacement was soon flown in from Auckland.
So from what I‘ve been able to find NZ573 crashed twice, the first time on the 1st April 1940 at Opotiki and was repaired by the No 1 Aircraft Dept. Hobsonville. and then on the 1st February 1943 at Taupo. This time it was sent to Rongotai and wasn’t repaired until August 1945. It was handed back to the Auckland Aero Club in May 1946, painted all silver.
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Post by dongrant on Apr 29, 2020 20:06:16 GMT 12
Thanks Dave and Mark for the photos. The one of the guys getting out of AJS I don’t have in my collection. Appreciate that.
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Post by Bruce on Apr 29, 2020 21:38:08 GMT 12
Excellent! Confirmation that it finished its RNZAF service in Silver overall is just what I needed in order to start my model! I would assume it would have C - Type Roundels and fin flash by that stage so its pretty safe to make an educated impression of its colour scheme from that. Silver is not particularly exciting, but the Staggerwing looks good regardless!
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nutjob
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by nutjob on Apr 29, 2020 22:57:29 GMT 12
Don.... with regards the tank engine, I wonder if there has been some confusion with WACO UOC NZ575 (ZK-AEL). The history we have on AEL contains references to a crash/forced landing at the Clarence River mouth whilst in RNZAF service and the story was that the Continental was replaced with a tank engine. Have never been able to confirm this as we have not been able to find RNZAF records of any detail. We think this is when the distinctive bumped cowl was replaced with what we are told is a UC-78 Bobcat cowling.... of course this makes things even more confusing as the UC-78 was powered by the Jacobs L4
I don't believe there was ever a model with a Continental (happy to be proven wrong) and I wouldn't think the RNZAF would go to all the hassle of trying to fit one given the undoubted changes to cowls, mounts and so forth.
On the other hand, perhaps the RNZAF acquired some tank engines and cowls and made it all work!
There are actually plenty of old Continental W-670 tank engines flying around the world, albeit with some parts changed out.
Stu Tantrum's Dr.1 ZK-FOK has one fitted and from what Stu told me it was bulk stripped/repared by a member of the RNZAF at Woodbourne in the early 80's
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 29, 2020 23:51:19 GMT 12
When gathering parts for the restoration of the Army Museum Stuart tank I have been told the Air Force Museum provided the core components for the radial motor. I am not aware the restoration has been completed. Details on NZ domestic use of Stuarts at kiwisinarmour.hobbyvista.com/stuart.htm |
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Post by dongrant on Apr 30, 2020 6:49:14 GMT 12
I’ve found this online in Google under Continental W670/6A
Continental Radials in Armored Vehicles
The W670-9A was similar to other W670 models and used most of the same components. Intended for use in light armored vehicles, it had a larger front crankshaft journal and thrust bearing, and a drive scheme suitable for a clutch rather than a propeller. It powered the T2, T4 and M1 Combat Car; M2 Light Tank; M3 Stuart; LVT-2, LVT-4, LVT(A)-1, LVT(A)-2, LVT(A)-4 and LVT(A)-5 Landing Vehicle Tracked.
So it’s quite possible that NZ573 and NZ575 both had Continental W670’s replacing their original engines by the RNZAF after crashes during the war. Perhaps the Jacobs were harder to get at that stage and the Continentals would be easier, given that they were used extensively in the Stearmans.
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nutjob
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by nutjob on Apr 30, 2020 8:29:37 GMT 12
Even easier for NZ575 as it came from the factory with the Continental fitted. The 'U' in WACO UOC being the engine designator for Continental.
As an aside there were only ever 3 UOC's built, the YOC with Jacobs (as per Don's Stag) having @ 50 built. The thought is that they only built three due to the demand for Continentals in Stearman's and WACO UPF-7's.
Most YOC's have been upgraded to the 275HP Jacobs and most Americans think the UOC will be a dog with 220HP (probably due to their increased mass over the past 80 years), yet pilots in the RNZAF Comms Flight regarded the WACO as their favourite aircraft to fly!
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Post by martymonsta on May 2, 2020 22:04:41 GMT 12
I have a pic of the Staggerwing in RNZAF camo! ... so hold off on those silver RNZAF model paint jobs! It appeared in an AHSNZ Aero Letter No 21 (May 2019). Box Brownie Man' is NZ422155 Benjamin William Astle, enlisted at Harewood as an Armourer on 20 Mar 42. Born 13 Oct 20. Info provided by Errol Martyn.  And closer up  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 2, 2020 22:53:20 GMT 12
The Staggerwing looks terrific in the wartime camouflage! Wow!
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Post by davidd on May 2, 2020 23:52:58 GMT 12
There is absolutely no room for doubt that the Beechcraft in question was re-engined with a W-670 Continental, s/n 12288, 210 HP. However exactly why the original engine was not re-installed after the February 1943 crash at Taupo is not known to me. The accident report for this crash states that the engine installed at the time "does not appear to have sustained serious damage", and the propeller was "slightly distorted, repairable." The original engine in the Beechcraft, on arrival in NZ was a Jacobs L-4, s/n 667, of 225 HP. All the Wacos which came to NZ were powered by variants of the Continental W-670 (military designation R-670). The two Cessna UC-78s registered in NZ (ZK-ARS, ART) were fitted with Jacobs L-4MB engines, 225 HP, s/ns 12569 & JO 24748 (ARS), and 13268 & 12142 (ART). It is also interesting that when Beechcraft ZK-AJS was exported to Australia in April 1954, the previous NZ owner stated that this aircraft was now powered with a Jacobs L-4MB radial. It might have come from one of the UC-78s (which were sold by tender to Aircraft Services (NZ) Ltd in February 1949), although there is no proof of this. Also I continue to be amazed by reports that so many "tank engines" (Continental W-670s) have been fitted in various aircraft in the USA, despite fact that the "real" tank engines were specifically prohibited from being converted to aircraft configuration as they incorporated many differences from the (parent) aircraft version, and were built separately with a much lower standard of inspection and finishing. But then again, look at all the criminals in Mexico who converted "written off" helicopter parts, including rotor blades, into "legal" parts and sold them for fairly high prices, even in NZ, because the "real stuff was too bloody expensive" - has this trade been completely wiped out, or are there still illegal duds in the supply networks? Illegal parts were also used in some jet airliners in the 1990s and into the 2000s, many manufactured in Asia I believe, again because the real stuff was considered Too Bloody expensive. Remember too that Rolls Royce manufactured a de-rated version of their Merlin specifically to power British armoured vehicles, but I don't think any of those ended up powering civilian aircraft (or did they?) Likewise, other large (and often obsolete) aviation piston engines were built as or converted to suit maritime applications, such as the Napier Lion, and the big Packard V-12 (called V-2500 I think), the latter to power the huge fleet of PT boats built in WW2. I also remember that a pair of WW1-vintage RR Eagle V-12s were found powering a sawmill in Scandinavia in the 1960s, and were returned to the UK to outfit a Vickers Vimy replica, but at least these engines were the "real deal".
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Post by madmax on May 3, 2020 11:40:23 GMT 12
I read many moons ago, but cannot now recall where, that AJS was fitted with a Jacobs L-4 previously fitted to a Cessna Bobcat. However no mention was made as to the identity of the Bobcat.
The aircraft did indeed make a wheels-up landing at Rongotai on arrival from Auckland on 24 April 1947. It landed on runway 34 and came to a halt in front of the de Havilland building. I have several photographs taken by my uncle of the aircraft on it belly and then being lifted by crane.
I have no knowledge of a similar mishap in 1945 when flown by a Wellington Aero Club instructor and as the club had not been reformed at this time their must be some doubt as to the authenticity of this event.
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Post by dongrant on May 10, 2020 8:30:57 GMT 12
I read many moons ago, but cannot now recall where, that AJS was fitted with a Jacobs L-4 previously fitted to a Cessna Bobcat. However no mention was made as to the identity of the Bobcat. The aircraft did indeed make a wheels-up landing at Rongotai on arrival from Auckland on 24 April 1947. It landed on runway 34 and came to a halt in front of the de Havilland building. I have several photographs taken by my uncle of the aircraft on it belly and then being lifted by crane. I have no knowledge of a similar mishap in 1945 when flown by a Wellington Aero Club instructor and as the club had not been reformed at this time their must be some doubt as to the authenticity of this event. |
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Post by dongrant on May 10, 2020 8:43:49 GMT 12
Sorry, I’m still trying to work out how to reply to messages etc. Madmax, would you be able to send me those photos taken by your uncle, with his name? I admin the FB page ‘Kiwi Staggerwing’ to create a history of her from when she arrived in 1936 until her arrival back here in October 2019. And of course her full restoration, which I am about to start on.
MartyMonsta, thanks for the camo photos, they are awesome!!
And davidd would you have a copy of the accident report for NZ573?
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