zhenghe
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 4
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Post by zhenghe on Jun 24, 2020 11:50:10 GMT 12
SINCE A SEARCH of THE UK CIVIL REGISTER does not suggest any DH-60 Gipsy Moth sold in italy prior to 1934 which could have donated wings used to rebuild the wrecked wings of G-AARB, the other possibility must be that Regia Aeronautica at Ciampino must have cannabalized a Caproni Ca.100 to fix Batten's plane? Has anyone got a different explanation? Since the Ca.100 was a license manufactued copy of the Gipsy Moth this seems the only explanation how it was repaired so quickly after destruction of the original wings on 21st April, 1934 so she could fly back to the UK in May?
Comment is invited since Jean Batten herself recounts the Italians rebuilt G-AARB with "spare wings found in the back of a hangar. However the Caproni is known to have featured shorter wingspan on the top wing rather than the bottom wing.
Please, help solve this puzzle?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 25, 2020 11:36:30 GMT 12
Very interesting. That sounds like a petty good theory.
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zhenghe
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 4
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Post by zhenghe on Jun 25, 2020 18:20:44 GMT 12
THIS IS WHAT I mean by a shorter span top wing, obviously before & after photos are the only way to prove or disprove this
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Post by nuuumannn on Aug 19, 2020 17:09:37 GMT 12
It's possible, anything's possible, doesn't confirm it though. It might be a little awkward owing to the differing lengths of the top wings between the Gipsy Moth and Ca.100, unless the Ca.100's top wing structure was lengthened to match that of the Gipsy Moth. I suspect the Ca.100's upper and lower wings were not interchangeable? Note in these pictures that the interplane struts cant inwards at the top.  Ca.100  Ca 100 |
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Post by carvairkid on Oct 29, 2020 20:07:45 GMT 12
I Couldn't recover my Zhenghe username, so I created a new one linked to my time flying on Carvairs in NZ in 1979. I did some digging,then I found Jean Batten's autobiography in German refers TO Signor Francesco Savelli. So then I tracked down a DH60 Moth owned by someone called Alfredo Savelli. (a pseudonym) I came up with Francisco Ruspoli, Prince of the house of Savoy: Francesco Ruspoli, 9th Prince of Cerveteri loaned her the wings off his DH60x C/N 112 built as a seaplane on Nov 1927 for Reggia Aeronautica as a template for the Caproni copy. re-registered as I-SAVE after Batten returned the wings.
Batten had to fly back tp the UK, put on some new DH wings , then re start the race from Lympne.
This is my gift to posterity, solving a puzzle about the Rome rebuild of G-AARB.
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Post by carvairkid on Oct 30, 2020 13:30:05 GMT 12
An interesting fact that I discovered about the DH60 Moth knock off, the Caproni Ca.100 & Ca.164 (Moth with a more powerful 184 hp engine) which were produced in huge numbers at Mussolini's home town by slave labour: Caproni was ultimately exposed for false invoicing for aircraft which were never delivered.
Jean Batten crashed into radio masts at Sao Paulo, Rome in darkness. She took off from Etang deBarre, Marseilles in fog. Because she feared running off the airstrip into tidal marshes, she limited her fuel load to 45 Imp Gallons(204 itres) Once above a solid layer of fog, with the mountains of Corsica hidden in cloud. her only choice was to extend a detour south of
Corsica. getting caught above cloud is a trap for all pilots
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Post by carvairkid on Dec 26, 2020 8:48:43 GMT 12
Batten, biographer & Author Fiona Kidman advises me Jean Batten regularly lunched with King George Vl and that Leopold lll was an ardent suitor of Batten. It stands to reason therefore if she knew the Prince Francesco Ruspoli,she also likely knew Count Ciano who leaked Hitler's plans to attack France through Belgium?
Obtaining Hitler's permission to fly from SWEDEN TO THE UK on the eve of Hitler's invasion of Poland, may have been deliberate reconnaissance to check if Nazi forces were massing on Belgium's border?
Batten's life peels back like an onion , layer after layer.
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Post by errolmartyn on Dec 26, 2020 9:50:51 GMT 12
Batten, biographer & Author Fiona Kidman advises me Jean Batten regularly lunched with King George Vl and that Leopold lll was an ardent suitor of Batten. It stands to reason therefore if she knew the Prince Francesco Ruspoli,she also likely knew Count Ciano who leaked Hitler's plans to attack France through Belgium? Obtaining Hitler's permission to fly from SWEDEN TO THE UK on the eve of Hitler's invasion of Poland, may have been deliberate reconnaissance to check if Nazi forces were massing on Belgium's border? Batten's life peels back like an onion , layer after layer. I'd be inclinded to treat novelist Kidman's book on Batten with a great deal of caution. She may have dined with King George VI, for instance, but 'regularly' - I think not (no 'evidence' provided in the book of course). Errol |
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Post by ZacYates on Dec 26, 2020 16:13:48 GMT 12
Isn't the Kidman book explicitly marketed as a novel, rather than a biography?
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Post by errolmartyn on Dec 26, 2020 18:49:37 GMT 12
Isn't the Kidman book explicitly marketed as a novel, rather than a biography? Katie Pickles, in an article about Kidman and the latter's book about Batten seemed to think it was more than just a novel. Pickles is a professor in history at Canterbury University who is much interested in 'female imperialism'. I was annoyed at the way both author and professor treated the subject of Batten and as a result had the following letter published in The Press in late Oct/early Nov 2016 Ian Mackersey, in the closing chapter of his book Jean Batten – The Garbo of the skies, sums up his subject as follows:
“Yet she had, in her golden years, brought immense honour and lustre to New Zealand. And though it was not perhaps widely appreciated a the time, she became the finest woman pilot of the era, eminently superior in her navigation and airmanship and the consistency of her feats, to her more celebrated and better remembered colleagues, Amy Johnson and Amelia Earhart. Although she lived in their shadow Jean Batten was a greater perfectionist, a more brilliant organiser and a great deal more professional in her attitude to flying, creating more long-distance records than either of them. And where they both eventually killed themselves, Jean’s ruthlessly high standards, and her messianic determination, kept her alive.”
This is far from the Mackerseys “assassinating her character and diminishing her achievements’, as claimed by Katie Pickles (26 Oct). Incidentally, Kidman, whose Batten book Pickles’ mentions so favourably, leaned heavily on the Mackerseys research for her book, The Infinite Air. Indeed, without the Mackerseys she would have had no book to write.Tellingly, there was no response from Pickles. Errol |
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Post by carvairkid on Dec 27, 2020 11:31:54 GMT 12
Isn't the Kidman book explicitly marketed as a novel, rather than a biography? Correct, however IIRC Fiona obtained access to Batten's diaries and interviewed Batten' surviving relatives to reconstruct events for her highly readable quasi biographical novel
I enjoyed Kidman's novel much more than Batten's 1938 autobiography: "My Life"
Fiona is on holiday at present but next time I HEAR FROM HER i will share a line to this discussion so she can answer you in her own words.
I dug some more and found it intriguing that Batten herself seemed to disguise the identity of Francesco Ruspoli in her autobiography. in DeHavilland's production list for the DH60 Cirrus Moth Ruspoli was further disguised as Alfredo Savelli:
Post Script addition:
After the war Ruspoli was interned at Padula internment camp, where suspected Fascist supporters were imprisoned by the Allies (one of the most famous inmates of this camp was shipping magnate Achille Lauro) Ruspoli flew SM. 79s. He ended his career with the rank of Air Force Colonel as "Lieutenant Emanuele Francesco Ruspoli He also bombed Barcelona & Guernica during the Spanish Civil War from an air base in Majorca [Mallorca] near where Batten lived in 1936.
I conjecture that Ruspoli was a go between for Ciano with the British and that perhaps Batten flew a courier service from Majorca to Gibraltar during the Spanish Civil War?
I honestly believe Batten was a far greater hero in WW2 than she has credit for
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Post by carvairkid on Dec 27, 2020 13:07:25 GMT 12
Isn't the Kidman book explicitly marketed as a novel, rather than a biography? Katie Pickles, in an article about Kidman and the latter's book about Batten seemed to think it was more than just a novel. Pickles is a professor in history at Canterbury University who is much interested in 'female imperialism'. I was annoyed at the way both author and professor treated the subject of Batten and as a result had the following letter published in The Press in late Oct/early Nov 2016 Ian Mackersey, in the closing chapter of his book Jean Batten – The Garbo of the skies, sums up his subject as follows:
“Yet she had, in her golden years, brought immense honour and lustre to New Zealand. And though it was not perhaps widely appreciated a the time, she became the finest woman pilot of the era, eminently superior in her navigation and airmanship and the consistency of her feats, to her more celebrated and better remembered colleagues, Amy Johnson and Amelia Earhart...
Although she lived in their shadow Jean Batten was a greater perfectionist, a more brilliant organiser and a great deal more professional in her attitude to flying, creating more long-distance records than either of them.
...And where they both eventually killed themselves, Jean’s ruthlessly high standards, and her messianic determination, kept her alive.”
This is far from the Mackerseys “assassinating her character and diminishing her achievements’, as claimed by Katie Pickles (26 Oct). Incidentally, Kidman, whose Batten book Pickles’ mentions so favourably, leaned heavily on the Mackerseys research for her book, The Infinite Air. Indeed, without the Mackerseys she would have had no book to write.Tellingly, there was no response from Pickles. Errol
I agree about Batten's brilliance however it is a bit harsh how you described Amy Johnson as killing herself, she flew a wartime communications flight and became lost above cloud, had to bail out and her body was found drowned in the Thames.
Batten's crah in Rome was both brilliant & stupid She was too impatient to reach Rome so she took of from Mariagne airport Marsailles in thick fog with only 45 Imperial Gallons fuel, much less than 60 Imp Gals maximum capacity, to shorten her take off run. Back then in 1934 her runway ended either in salt marshes, or the back of seaplane hangars at Berre l' Etang along the water's edge
Against strenuous advice Batten took off and flew south around Corsica into strong headwinds using Dead reckoning navigation.
However so precise was her navigation even in darkness above fog that as she descended into radio masts she was still actually perfectly aligned to the runway!
Some mpdern pilots can't even manage that with GPS & ILS!
Below: Farman F150 floatplane of French Aéronavale at Berre l' Etang:
Postwar SE-200 at Berre l'Etang
sadly NZ's aviation heritage with Mariagne continued long after Batten's 1930s flights.
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Post by errolmartyn on Dec 27, 2020 19:16:15 GMT 12
Katie Pickles, in an article about Kidman and the latter's book about Batten seemed to think it was more than just a novel. Pickles is a professor in history at Canterbury University who is much interested in 'female imperialism'. I was annoyed at the way both author and professor treated the subject of Batten and as a result had the following letter published in The Press in late Oct/early Nov 2016 Ian Mackersey, in the closing chapter of his book Jean Batten – The Garbo of the skies, sums up his subject as follows:
“Yet she had, in her golden years, brought immense honour and lustre to New Zealand. And though it was not perhaps widely appreciated a the time, she became the finest woman pilot of the era, eminently superior in her navigation and airmanship and the consistency of her feats, to her more celebrated and better remembered colleagues, Amy Johnson and Amelia Earhart...
Although she lived in their shadow Jean Batten was a greater perfectionist, a more brilliant organiser and a great deal more professional in her attitude to flying, creating more long-distance records than either of them.
...And where they both eventually killed themselves, Jean’s ruthlessly high standards, and her messianic determination, kept her alive.”
This is far from the Mackerseys “assassinating her character and diminishing her achievements’, as claimed by Katie Pickles (26 Oct). Incidentally, Kidman, whose Batten book Pickles’ mentions so favourably, leaned heavily on the Mackerseys research for her book, The Infinite Air. Indeed, without the Mackerseys she would have had no book to write.Tellingly, there was no response from Pickles. Errol I agree about Batten's brilliance however it is a bit harsh how you described Amy Johnson as killing herself,
Please re-read my post. I did not say that Amy Johnson killed herself. Errol |
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Post by errolmartyn on Dec 27, 2020 19:20:15 GMT 12
I honestly believe Batten was a far greater hero in WW2 than she has credit for
And your evidence for this is? Errol |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 27, 2020 21:26:25 GMT 12
I agree about Batten's brilliance however it is a bit harsh how you described Amy Johnson as killing herself, she flew a wartime communications flight and became lost above cloud, had to bail out and her body was found drowned in the Thames. Amy Johnson was not "found drowned". She was never lost, and she did not drown. She came down next to a Royal Navy ship that was preparing to leave port that had its main screws turning. Several sailors onboard that ship watched as she came down in her parachute, and she entered the water very close by, and they were helpless as they watched her chute get dragged through the big churning prop of the boat, taking her with it, and she was chopped to bits. This was totally hushed up by the war office and a bogus story circulated because it was felt too gruesome an end for a national hero, being killed by a Royal Navy ship's prop. The truth was released about 10 to 15 years ago. |
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Post by errolmartyn on Dec 27, 2020 22:03:37 GMT 12
I agree about Batten's brilliance however it is a bit harsh how you described Amy Johnson as killing herself, she flew a wartime communications flight and became lost above cloud, had to bail out and her body was found drowned in the Thames. Amy Johnson was not "found drowned". She was never lost, and she did not drown. She came down next to a Royal Navy ship that was preparing to leave port that had its main screws turning. Several sailors onboard that ship watched as she came down in her parachute, and she entered the water very close by, and they were helpless as they watched her chute get dragged through the big churning prop of the boat, taking her with it, and she was chopped to bits. This was totally hushed up by the war office and a bogus story circulated because it was felt too gruesome an end for a national hero, being killed by a Royal Navy ship's prop. The truth was released about 10 to 15 years ago. Fron the Independent 5 Jan 2016: However, Dr Alec Gill, a historian from Hull, claims the heroine’s death was deliberately covered up after she was killed by an unsuccessful rescue mission. Read more A witness on board HMS Haslemere, a converted ferry attempting to rescue her, remembered the ship’s engines being reversed that may have resulted in Johnson being pulled into the propellers. “This ship should have gone down in history as the vessel that saved her life,” said Dr Gill. “Instead, historians are now beginning to conclude that the propellers of the Haslemere killed her.” Dr Gill believes that the details of her death were deliberately covered up: “The Royal Navy did not want to admit to the Royal Air Force – or indeed a nation at war – that they had killed Britain’s favourite female pilot.” I have highlighted key words in the Independent's account as they do not amount to firm evidence. The cause of her death may be the correct one but it seems no actual 'evidence' has been found to confirm this. Also the War Office would not have been involved in a cover up in a matter that related to the Navy, that would have to have been the Admiralty, though again firm evidence appears to be lacking. Errol |
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Post by errolmartyn on Dec 27, 2020 22:06:18 GMT 12
Amy Johnson was not "found drowned". She was never lost, and she did not drown. She came down next to a Royal Navy ship that was preparing to leave port that had its main screws turning. Several sailors onboard that ship watched as she came down in her parachute, and she entered the water very close by, and they were helpless as they watched her chute get dragged through the big churning prop of the boat, taking her with it, and she was chopped to bits. This was totally hushed up by the war office and a bogus story circulated because it was felt too gruesome an end for a national hero, being killed by a Royal Navy ship's prop. The truth was released about 10 to 15 years ago. Fron the Independent 5 Jan 2016: However, Dr Alec Gill, a historian from Hull, claims the heroine’s death was deliberately covered up after she was killed by an unsuccessful rescue mission.
Read more
A witness on board HMS Haslemere, a converted ferry attempting to rescue her, remembered the ship’s engines being reversed that may have resulted in Johnson being pulled into the propellers.
“This ship should have gone down in history as the vessel that saved her life,” said Dr Gill. “Instead, historians [Note: none named by Gill] are now beginning to conclude that the propellers of the Haslemere killed her.”
Dr Gill believes that the details of her death were deliberately covered up: “The Royal Navy did not want to admit to the Royal Air Force – or indeed a nation at war – that they had killed Britain’s favourite female pilot.”I have highlighted key words in the Independent's account as they do not amount to firm evidence. The cause of her death may be the correct one but it seems no actual 'evidence' has been found to confirm this. Also the War Office would not have been involved in a cover up in a matter that related to the Navy, that would had to have been the Admiralty, though again firm evidence appears to be lacking. Errol |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 27, 2020 23:36:26 GMT 12
The programme I listened to was much earlier than that 2016 article, it was the BBC's Making History programme on Radio 4 back in 2003, and they gave the distinct impression that she definitely died as described in the prop screw of the ship. Sadly that episode is no longer available in their online archive for some reason.
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Post by carvairkid on Dec 29, 2020 13:55:45 GMT 12
YOU SAID:
[PRIOR TO THAT YOU ALSO SAID:]
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Post by chbessexboy on Dec 29, 2020 14:00:45 GMT 12
YOU SAID:
[PRIOR TO THAT YOU ALSO SAID:]
I believe Errol is quoting Ian Mackersey. |
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