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Post by silentflyer on Sept 23, 2020 21:38:54 GMT 12
Did you know that NZ secretly houses a genuine original WW2 German aircraft? Did you know that it currently very much in a condition that it can be returned to the air without excessive amounts of work? NZ has an original 1943 Jacobs/Schweyer Weihe sitting waiting for a new owner that wants to own a bit of aviation history. The Weihe was a German segelflug (glider to you and me) designed by Hans Jacobs (who was Germany's leading glider designer and worked at the Deutsche Forschungsanstalt für Segelflug -DFS) that was revolutionary when it first flew in 1938 and was at that point, one of the worlds best performing gliders. Built during the war for the Nationalsozialistisches Fliegerkorps (NFSK), this old girl is as happy as mixing it with modern glass gliders as she would be alongside a Mosquito at Wanaka! In other words, she would be a great project for someone that wants an aircraft that is affordable to the man on the street, practical to use, and what would be a potential life changing aircraft for an enthusiast that would be a welcome and popular exhibit at any WW2 themed airshow in the country. The Weihe was the winner of many world-records, including winning the World Gliding championships, distance records and was even a NZ record holder of several NZ records flown by Dick Georgeson and Philip Wills, including a record altitude of just over 30,000 feet over the southern alp's. It currently is on a British registration, so would need a NZ CAA inspection. Advice on transitioning the glider onto a NZ registration can also be provided. Any interested parties, please contact me and I will put you in contact with the deceased's family here in the UK for further information.  |
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Post by Bruce on Sept 24, 2020 9:05:41 GMT 12
The Ashburton Aviation Museum also has a genuine ex-German Weihe, ZK-GAE. That example Was recovered from Germany to the UK semi-illicitly postwar and has had a long and illustrious career in NZ, including several altitude records. they were certainly great performing sailplanes! Interesting that there's another example in the country now too.
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Post by planewriting on Sept 24, 2020 16:03:06 GMT 12
The Ashburton Aviation Museum also has a genuine ex-German Weihe, ZK-GAE. That example Was recovered from Germany to the UK semi-illicitly postwar and has had a long and illustrious career in NZ, including several altitude records. they were certainly great performing sailplanes! Interesting that there's another example in the country now too. The other Weihe (not ZK-GAE) has been in New Zealand since 2005. |
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Post by planewriting on Sept 24, 2020 16:05:20 GMT 12
The Ashburton Aviation Museum also has a genuine ex-German Weihe, ZK-GAE. That example Was recovered from Germany to the UK semi-illicitly postwar and has had a long and illustrious career in NZ, including several altitude records. they were certainly great performing sailplanes! Interesting that there's another example in the country now too. |
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Post by planewriting on Sept 24, 2020 16:11:02 GMT 12
Silentflyer
Roger Brown sailplane@xtra.co.nz has emailed me, quote
Hi Peter. Amazing to how the 'grape vine 'works . If it was possible to attach my email address to a reply I can reply with a full history breakdown from the log book that could be sent to any interested party.
Cheers
Roger
Go for it mate.
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Post by silentflyer on Sept 24, 2020 16:44:48 GMT 12
GAE was one of the Weihe’s that Philip Wills recovered from Germany in June of 1945, so it wasn’t illicitly sourced.
Philip Wills, Fred Slingsby, and an American intelligence officer were tasked to interview selected wooden aircraft designers, people like the Hutter Brothers, the designer of the Natter, Hans Jacobs, etc. Wills and Slingsby (who was a close friend of Wills), had been tasked to make an assessment of German role of gliders to the war effort and he quite legally under the general terms of the surrender, took what he could get. Many German clubs and centres tried hiding their gliders in farmers barns etc, as the Allies were burning gliders early on. That’s how the Horton 4 ended up in the U.K. as Wally Kahn and his mates knew what they were looking at when they came across one that was about to be burned.
They convinced the American GI’s that as it was missing its tail, it was therefore of no use as a usable war weapon/aircraft, so they may as well have it (well that’s the nuts and bolts of Wally’s story from his book. Having personally known Wally, he was a larger than life character!).
Wills sourced several gliders and had them arranged to be taken back to England, one at least via Belgium which he stuffed down the back of a DC3.
They were especially interested in the Weihe as Wills was actively encouraging Slingsby to hire Jacobs and also build the Weihe. Slingsby refused to have a German working for him designing a British product (understandable I guess given the times). Slingsby copied the Weihe (as he had done with most other of his gliders), made some modifications, and called it the Sky.
GAE was one of the Weihes that Wills brought back from Germany on that trip. I have the report (with it’s then ‘Top Secret’ printed across the top) of that trip to Germany.
The social side of tracking down the men they wanted to interview is quite interesting reading (and highlighted the extent of damage inflicted upon general infrastructure and the difficulty of moving around), let alone reading about the flying qualities of the several types, especially the Gigant.
I truly find it depressing to hear just how dire the gliding scene in NZ is becoming. When I left in the 80’s it was a much stronger scene. Endless red tape and almost zero interest in your most historical gliders, it leaves me stunned. If they were powered aircraft you guys would be treating them like Crown Jewels. Amazing....
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Post by silentflyer on Sept 24, 2020 20:40:17 GMT 12
BTW Group Captain, Roger and I are working together on this. It’s just I didn’t tell him I was going to post here. He sent me the first of the adverts to go in our magazine here that gets sent all over the world to members, so chances are, you will loose them to an overseas buyer eventually? NZ loss, someone else’s gain.
I knew Ian Dunkley well who imported a small collection of gliders. Ian wanted to start a movement there that promoted the preservation and flying of historic gliders within NZ. He also wanted a group of likeminded people around him to go fly with and (he loved a bun fight with authority, the more pointless the rule, the more determined he got), to promote flying and appreciating old gliders that get forgotten because they are not the latest ‘hot glass ship’ that costs hundreds of thousands and are out of reach of most of us mere mortals in society.
Those who do not appreciate what they have now, lose it to the future, just look how close NZ got to still having a S30 flying boat but the Auckland City council put paid to that. Had it lasted just another few more years Aotearoa might be sitting alongside Aranui today at MOTAT.
That’s the price we all pay if you keep neglecting the past. We all have a role to play, even the individual. I guess it comes down to what you value? If it doesn’t have an engine, it’s not an aircraft in many peoples eyes here. They just focus on a small area of preservation, the one area that demands big $$$, yet they don’t have the first clue of what role the gliding world played in powered aviation. If it wasn’t for gliding, the opening years of WW2 would have undoubtedly been fought with Bi-planes, even the iconic Spitfire wing was designed by a student of glider design, Beverly Shenstone, who after the war designed the Harbinger.
I really doubt that Ian’s hard work to get Vintage Kiwi up and flying (it took a POM to do it, and I’m a Kiwi saying that btw), but I am sceptical, from what Rogers been telling me, that it will last. It will die out because not enough people care and the younger generation is even more ignorant to NZ gliding history than the present one...which is an interesting statement to make for a country that others look at as a paradise for gliding, yet it appears to be getting strangled by over zealous red tape and a complete lack of appreciation for even your own history, despite big money going into making NZ a world center of war bird preservation....weird.
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Post by retiredav8r on Sept 25, 2020 9:32:18 GMT 12
Interested in the Glider. I have sent my email address to you, however you never reply?
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Post by retiredav8r on Sept 28, 2020 9:09:03 GMT 12
I am assuming not a genuine request for interest as never replies. Shame if it leaves NZ.
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Post by planewriting on Sept 28, 2020 13:54:12 GMT 12
I am not involved with the sale of this glider but as a matter of interest, where are you located?
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Post by planewriting on Sept 28, 2020 15:44:27 GMT 12
Hello Bruce (Silentflyer)
I agree with some of what you have said in your two recent posts on the Wings over New Zealand forum however I don't think you have taken into consideration the difference between New Zealand and the United Kingdom particularly well.
You would be well aware, as a Kiwi living in the United Kingdom, that you have approximately ten times the population base of New Zealand's and consequently, we have a much smaller number of glider pilots and in turn, gliders, including vintage ones. Thanks to Vintage Kiwi, the number of inactive vintage gliders has been at least almost static for many years. Sure, it would be nice to have them reactivated but the situation (number wise) is not as dire as you have portrayed. It would be realised too that with the decline in vintage gliders there would be a flow on effect in numbers of engineers qualified to maintain older gliders. The tragic loss of Fred Dunn in 1966 would not have helped matters either.
Another consideration, which should be taken into account, is the geography of New Zealand. As you will know, New Zealand has pioneered a high proportion of the world's distance records. 1000km straight line flights in the United Kingdom are probably not possible and certainly not of record breaking proportions. Also take into account the high mountains in New Zealand. How many peaks does your country have in excess of 10,000 feet? What I am emphasising is that New Zealand lends itself to long distance and high altitiude flights. What other countries have a length similar to New Zealand's and also have such a small population base? Just as in any other country where such flights are possible, the gliding fraternity has purchased high performance gliders to best achieve such flights. Take Dick Georgeson for example. After a succession of wooden gliders with which he had had so much success, in 1968, he too went the fibre-glass way and never looked back, in terms of glider ownership. His contemporaries did likewise and so the "fuse was lit" long ago. If one club could afford a two-seat fibre-glass glider, then neighbouring clubs felt pressured to buy likewise and did so. I am confident that New Zealand is not the only country where gliding has followed that trend. Sad but undoubtedly true. From this, the different trend followed by gliders from that followed by vintage powered aircraft in New Zealand should be evident.
In 2003 I visited England for the first time and at one stage stayed with my mother's cousin, Harry (and his wife Jean) Williams. Out came Harry's photo album in which was a photo of him in a K-13 with Ian Dunkley, who he had known and flown with for many years. He spoke of the many local flights he completed in his Ka6E and showed me his club's T-21 at Snitterfield. How often did Ian and Harry do long distance flying? I gained the impression their flights were generally local or out and return.
You make reference to the Empire flying-boat Aotearoa at Mission Bay but again I think you have overlooked a key point. In the early post-war years, aircraft of the war era were not in favour in a world yearning for peace. Even TEAL's two Empire boats served in a quasi military role in their occasional flights to Hawaii with Akaroa being fired upon. You will probably be aware that Motat did not start collecting aircraft until 1964 and fortunately got the Solent ZK-AMO. I cannot really see the relevance to mentioning the flying-boats in your post when the discussion subject you raised concerns gliding matters occurring 70 years later.
On the lighter side of all that it so happens my father was a Sunderland test pilot before delivering the first RNZAF one to New Zealand in 1944. One example he flew before delivery to its squadron was ML761, which post war became TEAL's first Sandringham ZK-AMB in 1946. Dad was pilot in command of an RNZAF Sunderland while Captain Peter Jury got Sunderland experience before going to Sydney to command ZK-AMB on the final leg of its delivery flight to start replacing the Empire boats. I don't think my father can be held accountable for the demise of the TEAL Empire boats!
You also make reference to "over zealous red tape". What specifically are you referring to in that comment? As you will know, the two-seater training world was considerably put out by the grounding of Blaniks. They were, at the time the most popular two seater in New Zealand and that too forced the clubs to procure new high performance gliders.
So Bruce, yes it is a shame that there has not been the hoped for interest in the Weihe but sadly the "rot set in" many years ago.
I trust this acquaints you (and all readers of this thread) with a far more accurate picture of the New Zealand gliding situation with regard to its older gliders.
Regards
Peter Layne (WONZ planewriting)
Aviation Historian
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Post by retiredav8r on Sept 28, 2020 16:37:19 GMT 12
I am located in New Zealand and know of no problems why the aircraft should have any problems with certification.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 28, 2020 19:03:03 GMT 12
I knew Ian Dunkley well who imported a small collection of gliders. Ian wanted to start a movement there that promoted the preservation and flying of historic gliders within NZ. He also wanted a group of likeminded people around him to go fly with and (he loved a bun fight with authority, the more pointless the rule, the more determined he got), to promote flying and appreciating old gliders that get forgotten because they are not the latest ‘hot glass ship’ that costs hundreds of thousands and are out of reach of most of us mere mortals in society. This is the first I have ever heard of any attempt at a vintage glider movement in New Zealand, despite having run this forum for more than 15 years where anyone can promote aviation ventures they are trying to get off the ground to the biggest online readership of aviation-minded people in the country; and having a very wide array of contacts in aviation in this country. This gliding board never gets any posts unless there's a crash. I have always figured glider pilots are insular or do not want people knowing their business, and that they don't promote anything to the wider community. I have never once been sent any gliding events to add to the forum's calendar in the 15.5 years it's been there, for example. There are members here who do go gliding but they very seldom post anything about it. In fact the only person I know who has any interest in vintage gliding is member Planewriting (Peter Layne). I know other glider pilots but cannot think of any who've said anything about old gliders unless it was about old ones in museums - which are the only old gliders I've ever seen, usually strung up in ceilings. So how does anyone expect to start such a venture but not tell anyone about it? The gliding world might have seen something in their private club newsletters but you cannot expect the wider aviation community to all want to buy this Nazi glider or support some vintage gliding business when no-one knows anything about it. That’s the price we all pay if you keep neglecting the past. We all have a role to play, even the individual. Wrong place to preach that mantra I'm afraid, there are more people here working hard in their spare time and professionally to make sure New Zealand's aviation past is not neglected and lost than anywhere else on the internet. And how can any one of them be expected to do anything about this glider when this is the first we've heard of it? If it doesn’t have an engine, it’s not an aircraft in many peoples eyes here. They just focus on a small area of preservation, the one area that demands big $$$, yet they don’t have the first clue of what role the gliding world played in powered aviation. Again, you cannot know what you've never been told. And yes most people stick to one area of interest, there are people on this forum who preserve warbirds, some that preserve early biplane classics, some preserving helicopters, some preserving microlights, some preserving topdressers... that is their interest, and their speciality. So what? All these groups get on well and they post here if they need something or want to promote something to let others know about it, and we all learn. Cross-pollination of the different aviation genres is what this forum is about. But do you really expect them all to be involved in every aspect of aviation? It's impractical and economically impossible. So what you want to do is find people interested in old vintage gliders, and to do that they first have to be informed of what's going on, but this thread is the first most of us will have heard about your specific area of interest, and adding a tirade because of a lack of response is not the way to attract people to your own particular area of specialty, surely? I really doubt that Ian’s hard work to get Vintage Kiwi up and flying (it took a POM to do it, and I’m a Kiwi saying that btw), but I am sceptical, from what Rogers been telling me, that it will last. It will die out because not enough people care and the younger generation is even more ignorant to NZ gliding history than the present one...which is an interesting statement to make for a country that others look at as a paradise for gliding, yet it appears to be getting strangled by over zealous red tape and a complete lack of appreciation for even your own history, despite big money going into making NZ a world center of war bird preservation....weird. Maybe you could start by actually telling the readers here where this collection is based? What is in the collection? How can people access it? What is involved, in terms of is there training, rides, a static museum? What is the website and the Facebook page called? New Zealand has an organisation called Youth Glide New Zealand, its Facebook page has over 1100 members, has he tried to engage with them and get them involved? I am sorry, I do not meant to be rude, but I am flummoxed by the total lack of information about an organisation and whole area of aviation we're supposed to all know about and be supporting. |
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Post by baronbeeza on Sept 28, 2020 19:32:54 GMT 12
Maybe I am just showing my age but I flew some of these older machines back in the day. The regos that come to mind are GBB, GFY, GBW and GDT.
BB, Schneider ES 52 Kookaburra
FY Schleicher ASK 13
BW, Rhönlerche K4
DT, Rhönadler Ka 7
I think they were all a great introduction to flying but when I compare the environment then to now I do see differences. Perhaps the main one is that gliding sites these days seem removed from the 'local' areas.
I may be wrong but places like Christchurch, Blenheim and Nelson used to have gliders flying about overhead most weekends.
These days it may be necessary to have your old glider at a site with the local club. I think all those I flew would be great in places like Omarama.
I did all my 'Silver C' award flights there in a Blanik and I think it would be a minor challenge to compete in any of those older machines.
Someone here will say how this Weihe compares.
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Post by silentflyer on Sept 29, 2020 0:25:18 GMT 12
Hi Dave and all reading this...
Firstly, no one likes someone on a soapbox preaching about preservation and about a field that is overlooked all the time, especially when they are preaching from outside the church…completely understandable, but there is some merit and truth in what I say. Also I am the first to acknowledge that I do not have an indepth working knowledge of today’s NZ gliding scene in terms of red-tape, so my comments are based upon what people tell me how things are down there these days. Of course it may be wrong to compare it to the system here in the UK, but fact of the matter is, the BGA has a far better working relationship with our CAA that allows us much more say with our sport free from the majority of red-tape of other CAA matters and we are allowed to self-regulate under the rules of both state law and regulation and not be micro-managed by people who know little or nothing about the demands of our sport and operation…but then this is not the UK we are talking about.
I also pick up on the fact that many in within the NZ gliding community talk of CAA red-tape and falling numbers within the NZ gliding scene. I cant really comment from personal experience other to say that all I know of is when I started gliding in NZ in the early 1980’s, it seemed to have a pretty optimistic outlook for the future (but maybe that was a youthful optimism?). More importantly, as others have pointed out, I am told that back then there was a far more sympathetic bunch within the NZ CAA towards gliding than today (their words, not mine BTW). Yes the UK gliding scene enjoys far greater numbers, but it is all relative and the fact that there appears to be waning interest in older gliders with many remaining unsold and unused in NZ, speaks volumes of a pretty bleak future and attitude towards your own heritage and reminds me of the 60’s when we all watched Model A’s rotting quietly away in farmers’ fields.
Ok as far as being unaware of any movement to preserve NZ gliding history. Ian started up Vintage Kiwi in the early 2000’s. Peter Layne is more than aware of the history and the aims Ian set out when he talked about ‘Stopping the Rot;’ it was in fact pretty much from the Vintage Glider Clubs articles of association and the aims the VGC. Both Ian and I were on the VGC Board at the same time, so yes I do know a little bit about VK as Ian and I talked about it here in Europe quite a few times and I have always taken a keen interest in promoting NZ gliding up here in the UK through the magazine etc and have written articles on the subject etc.
As for never hearing from anyone and NZ gliding aviation history, quite wrong. I wrote to you myself of a beast of a glider that I covered here in the UK of a glider designed and built in NZ in the 50’s/60’s that had some quite advanced features which was forwarded to me by Roger Brown for our magazine. Again Peter Layne will be well aware of this glider, built by Doug Righton, and was an amazing huge construction that included a variable-incidence tail-plane, and WING, along with an inflight adjustable CofG; quite advanced thinking for the day and one hell of a challenge, and as I would liken, in the spirit of Pearce.
I also mentioned to you that if you were interested, I would send you a rather interesting article of some research I did in the archives here (and based on a rather intriguing story of the trails on the internet) on the feasibility study into using Spitfires to tow Hotspur gliders across the ditch for D-Day. There was no response from you on either subject. I therefore assumed you were not particularly interested with gliding related history subjects.
I am well versed to the general ignorance of the powered world and gliding’s role and accept that it is the norm and there is a general disinterest in learning more of a subject that readily gets overlooked. So no, I cant blame anyone for not knowing more, and yes, the gliding world can be a bit of insular lot.
Fact of the matter is we are often overlooked, but I will say it again, most powered enthusiasts don’t have the first Scooby about what the powered world has gained from gliding over the decades (again, its just a fact of life that I accept). My posts here are for the simple fact that I have a personal wish to see to historically interesting aircraft remain in NZ. It is interesting to see that no other Kiwi has attempted likewise here, which in itself speaks volumes in terms of trying to do something positive, in what is after all, first and foremost, an aviation based historic website.
So no, I am not preaching to the converted but rather hope that I am educating the converted in appreciating what’s under your noses and try to motivate some of you to sit up and take notice before you lose them for good. If anyone finds that patronising, then sorry, but call that the NZ bit in me in being direct…
Youth glide. Well they are hardly an outlet for historically based aircraft (and FB numbers are hardly an indication of local members). If they are anything like the model of our youth glide here in the UK, Youth Glide is focused primarily in bringing youth into the sport and on the next champions of tomorrow. It has been hugely successful here in the UK, especially in terms of our competition results of past years.
I posted here on your website/forum because I cant think of another NZ aviation history based place to get the word out there before its too late? And no I am not blaming you (at least you have done something in trying to cater for NZ gliding with a discussion Board) but I where better else am I supposed to be independently banging the drum to educate people of what they currently have in the attempt to encourage someone to realise what they have under their noses. I think we are now down to one airworthy Weihe in this country now, as the Germans have been buying them all back!
As this is fast becoming another war and peace on my part, in answer to your post Peter, yes there are things we can argue back and forth, some of which I am readily happy to stand corrected on. The S30 comment came from a written comment I read a few years ago that in the day the City of Auckland Council gave the then owners of the S30 notice to remove it from where it sat as it was starting to look shabby and run-down. Of course the then owners are alleged to have few alternatives but to take the easiest path and simply sell it on for scrap (sadly, as was the fate of all the other surviving S-30s around the world).
Yes of course this was in the day before both aircraft preservation and MOTAT, but whats disappointing is that when you look at what the modern day council is doing in signing off new developments in Auckland at the expense of some of Auckland’s historic buildings/houses, which are still disappearing, one could deduce that they have learnt little in valuing our past…a comment I know will probably get up the noses of some reading this, but then I would remind everyone where would we be if the Napier City Council continued down that road with a similar on-going attitude in the 80’s in Napier after the movement there convinced them to halt the then destruction program of its 30's architecture?
Ho hum...
Happy Landings all…
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Post by silentflyer on Sept 29, 2020 0:41:42 GMT 12
BTW Dave,
This is not my place to tell where the gliders are currently stored in the Sth Island (nor is any of my posts intended as a rant BTW). The estate is being handled by family here in the UK and with Roger in NZ. I am banging drums to make people aware of what it is you have there in an attempt to see them stay there. As I said in the above post, if people want more info, then contact me and I will put them onto Roger and the family directly. Peter Layne can do the same I believe...
For anyone interested, the other glider being offered is a French Fauvel AV.36 flying wing...
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Post by planewriting on Sept 29, 2020 8:26:08 GMT 12
Thank you Silentflyer for your well considered post earlier today. Yes, as I think you know, Roger and I work closely on things "gliding history" and between us we would be only too pleased to see Ian's gliders remain in New Zealand and in an airworthy state.
The next step is to get reitedav8r on board with the Weihe.
Speaking of which, the photo you no doubt have seen of it an air show a few years ago stemmed from an idea of mine. It was taken at the 2011 Classic Fighters Air Show at Omaka near Blenheim. The theme was German warbirds and knowing about the Weihe I decided to casually "mention" it to Ian Dunkley. Typically, his response was immediate and in no time at all hangar space, rigging crew, drive up from Akaroa, promotional material, wife etc etc was all organised. I flew over from Wellington and helped him throughout the weekend. A large German band was part of the show's overall programme. At the end of their first act I approached the band master and mentioned the Weihe in the hangar. "Oh yeah, we'll come and have a look later on". "Yeah right" I thought and told Ian. Well, true to form the entire band next day (about 40 men and women) suddenly arrived in the hangar playing their music and swarmed round the Weihe for a photograph in front of a large number of curious people who followed them in. We were busy for quite some time after that telling people all about the Weihe.
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Post by planewriting on Sept 29, 2020 9:55:51 GMT 12
I am located in New Zealand and know of no problems why the aircraft should have any problems with certification. Please send me a PM and I will follow up for you. We (in this discussion) would all like to see the Weihe flying in New Zealand and you should be given every opportunity to explore that possibility. Please include your real name and email address so that we can have a worthwhile exchange of information to get things underway. Regards Peter Layne (planewriting) |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 29, 2020 9:58:00 GMT 12
Yes the UK gliding scene enjoys far greater numbers, but it is all relative and the fact that there appears to be waning interest in older gliders with many remaining unsold and unused in NZ, speaks volumes of a pretty bleak future and attitude towards your own heritage and reminds me of the 60’s when we all watched Model A’s rotting quietly away in farmers’ fields. In my opinion the interest in preserving our aviation heritage in New Zealand has never been stronger than it is now. Look at MOTAT and compare it with 20 or 30 years ago. Then it was a bunch of rotting airframes, now it is a world class museum. Looks at Classic Flyers NZ Museum, they have rescued and restored an Avenger that most people thought was way too far gone. Look at Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre, an incredible museum. The Air Force Museum of New Zealand is bigger and better than ever, and is expanding. NZ Warbirds At Ardmore now have four hangars full of aircraft, most of them flying. Recently the oldest homebuild in New Zealand flew again. There are people operating and rebuilding ancient topdressers just for the heritage value nowadays. There are currently two Harvards undergoing restoration to fly again, both by young guys who own them and who love the history. Croydon at Mandeville is another fine example, and there are pockets of preservation all around the country whether with well known companies like Avspecs, Pioneer, JEM and Twenty24, or in private workshops at places like North Shore, Omaka, or wherever. The movement to retain, preserve, and in many cases fly our old aeroplanes and helicopters is vibrant and expanding. It would seem, if you are right, the gliding heritage scene are the only ones going in the other direction, and that can only be down to the people involved in gliding, you cannot blame anyone else. Ok as far as being unaware of any movement to preserve NZ gliding history. Ian started up Vintage Kiwi in the early 2000’s. Peter Layne is more than aware of the history and the aims Ian set out when he talked about ‘Stopping the Rot;’ it was in fact pretty much from the Vintage Glider Clubs articles of association and the aims the VGC. Both Ian and I were on the VGC Board at the same time, so yes I do know a little bit about VK as Ian and I talked about it here in Europe quite a few times and I have always taken a keen interest in promoting NZ gliding up here in the UK through the magazine etc and have written articles on the subject etc. So, that is two people who knew about it, you and Peter .... and? As for never hearing from anyone and NZ gliding aviation history, quite wrong. I wrote to you myself of a beast of a glider that I covered here in the UK of a glider designed and built in NZ in the 50’s/60’s that had some quite advanced features which was forwarded to me by Roger Brown for our magazine. Now that I have worked out who you are, quite right you did email me in 2017, and you said you'd covered a glider in the UK that was designed in New Zealand. You never mentioned anything about the Vintage Kiwi movement in that email, and it would have been just pone of dozens of emails I receive every week from people around NZ and the world seeking my assistance or wanting to talk about various aspects of aviation, so I am afraid I had forgotten about that. In the email you acknowledged that gliding is "not exactly up your piston and turbine charged street", who I freely admit as I have never had any involvement in gliding whatsoever, and it does not interest me as much as other areas of aviation, so that email had slipped from my memory I must admit. I did read the attached article however, but now it no longer opens from the attachment. But you missed my point, telling me personally about something in an email is well and good, and I do read and appreciate such things I get sent, so if I have an interest and the time I might pursue it further. If I did not follow it up, sorry, but I genuinely have so many enquiries and requests for assistance with projects on my plate at any given time I cannot respond to all of them and have to triage in a way. You'd be amazed at some of the emails I get. People think I am busy on the forum but there is a lot more going on off the forum. I can only do so much, and I have to find the time to pursue my own interests and projects too which often get pushed aside when other people ask me to help with theirs. And I do not get paid for any of this by the way! This forum is a community service, not a business. If you want something known about, don't just email me, post it to the forum where thousands of people have the opportunity to read it. That was my point, we do not get any engagement here from anyone in gliding trying to promote the history or even the current happenings. That is what I was saying to you. That is not my fault, the opportunity is there for all involved in aviation to promote their events and activities, it is up to them to take that opportunity. I am well versed to the general ignorance of the powered world and gliding’s role and accept that it is the norm and there is a general disinterest in learning more of a subject that readily gets overlooked. So no, I cant blame anyone for not knowing more, and yes, the gliding world can be a bit of insular lot. Fact of the matter is we are often overlooked, but I will say it again, most powered enthusiasts don’t have the first Scooby about what the powered world has gained from gliding over the decades (again, its just a fact of life that I accept). My posts here are for the simple fact that I have a personal wish to see to historically interesting aircraft remain in NZ. It is interesting to see that no other Kiwi has attempted likewise here, which in itself speaks volumes in terms of trying to do something positive, in what is after all, first and foremost, an aviation based historic website. So no, I am not preaching to the converted but rather hope that I am educating the converted in appreciating what’s under your noses and try to motivate some of you to sit up and take notice before you lose them for good. If anyone finds that patronising, then sorry, but call that the NZ bit in me in being direct… Look, I appreciate that you were highlighting that this glider is in NZ, since no-one has ever mentioned it before and we were largely unaware. Aircraft, or any artefact, can only have any sort of cultural significance if it is known about. There is a difference between ignorance and being unaware and uninformed by those who should be telling the story of the glider. But you cannot force people to be interested. You need to find a way to engage them without being high handed or insulting. It's like the constant push nowadays on everyone from government to learn Maori culture and language. While I acknowledge it is important to a small sector of people in New Zealand, I personally have no interest whatsoever as I have enough to do trying to get my head around my own culture, heritage and life, so I won't drop everything to learn someone else's culture and adopt it into my life just to make them feel good. As someone who's interest is focused mostly on WWII RNZAF and warbirds, it is the same feeling I get reading your attitude about vintage gliding. Youth glide. Well they are hardly an outlet for historically based aircraft (and FB numbers are hardly an indication of local members). If they are anything like the model of our youth glide here in the UK, Youth Glide is focused primarily in bringing youth into the sport and on the next champions of tomorrow. It has been hugely successful here in the UK, especially in terms of our competition results of past years. Choosing to not engage with the youth who have a genuine interest is the quickest way to kill a movement. My god. I posted here on your website/forum because I cant think of another NZ aviation history based place to get the word out there before its too late? And no I am not blaming you (at least you have done something in trying to cater for NZ gliding with a discussion Board) but I where better else am I supposed to be independently banging the drum to educate people of what they currently have in the attempt to encourage someone to realise what they have under their noses. I think we are now down to one airworthy Weihe in this country now, as the Germans have been buying them all back! How about not showing up to "bang the drum", but make interesting, regular posts about the scene that people who have no knowledge can learn from. You will engage with some of the readers that way. Instead or posting that people who like engines are ignorant. This site is an asset to every sector of the aviation community. Just look at what it has achieved for others - museums engaging with the public here with regular, positive posts have been a boon in generating interest, sharing of expertise, knowledge and parts. Associations have gained a much wider readership here. Individual restorations of even the most obscure aircraft have gained a big following and support through the forum. It goes on and on. People in one sector of the industry who never had an interest in another get to see a bit about it here, they find themselves engaged, and they get drawn in. This cross-pollination of the entire NZ aviation scene has been happening for over 15 years now, it is one of the aspects of this forum I am most proud of as it has genuinely brought a load of once-splintered groups together in one place and we've all benefitted and all learned a hell of a lot from each other. Gliding is really the only community in aviation I can think of who've never really embraced this. Yes there are some glider pilots who've made some great posts over the years, but the gliding community as a whole have been pretty much absent here. Time for that to change? |
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Post by johnnyfalcon on Sept 29, 2020 17:27:38 GMT 12
Well said Dave.
I can understand Silentflyer's frustration. And, perhaps the beginning of this thread was a valve that vented some of that steam. When I first read his post I was immediately interested - if for nothing other than historicity's sake.
Silentflyer has accomplished the task of alerting others (many perhaps) to the presence of this artefact. Well done. I say that other sailplane enthusiasts who have something to share should take a leaf out of his book and see what can be done by simply sharing your enthusiasm with the audience here.
Who knows what will eventuate?
J
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